The Differences Between The Two Baptists Churches Independent And Dependent

[Heir of Salvation]

A Church which freely associates with the S.B.C. is not "dependent" upon it for anything.  A church may choose either to, or not to cooperate within the S.B.C. at it's leisure.  They are not "dependent" in the least.

 

The S.B.C. has and claims absolutely no authority over any Baptist Church in it's association whatsoever.  They can't remove pastors any more than they can place them.  They can choose to disassociate with you, but, similarly, any Church can disassociate with the convention at any time it chooses to.  A church can be "S.B.C." one minute, and be "Independent" the next at it's leisure.  ALL Baptist Churches are "Independent" by definition.  A more accurate term to use would really be "un-affiliated" (not "Independent").  If your I.F.B. church chooses to associate by democratic vote to associate with the S.B.C. one year does it become non-Independent all of a sudden?....No.    Can it choose to dis-associate at a whim any time without repercussion later?....Yes.

 

Many (so-called) "Independent" Baptists churches are quite as affiliated as S.B.C. Churches are actually...They just belong to associations of "Independent" Baptists.  It gets rather ironic sometimes.

[The Glory Land]

You can not fine a good church by the music only. There those that are against any changes , these are fanatics. I don't like rock music in the church, but I don't go around saying they are of the devil. I would not be a member of a know it all church.

[The Glory Land]

A Church which freely associates with the S.B.C. is not "dependent" upon it for anything. A church may choose either to, or not to cooperate within the S.B.C. at it's leisure. They are not "dependent" in the least.

The S.B.C. has and claims absolutely no authority over any Baptist Church in it's association whatsoever. They can't remove pastors any more than they can place them. They can choose to disassociate with you, but, similarly, any Church can disassociate with the convention at any time it chooses to. A church can be "S.B.C." one minute, and be "Independent" the next at it's leisure. ALL Baptist Churches are "Independent" by definition. A more accurate term to use would really be "un-affiliated" (not "Independent"). If your I.F.B. church chooses to associate by democratic vote to associate with the S.B.C. one year does it become non-Independent all of a sudden?....No. Can it choose to dis-associate at a whim any time without repercussion later?....Yes.

Many (so-called) "Independent" Baptists churches are quite as affiliated as S.B.C. Churches are actually...They just belong to associations of "Independent" Baptists. It gets rather ironic sometimes.

That was pretty good. :)

[DaveW]

Not ALL baptist churches are independent by definition.
I understand what you mean regarding SBC and that was my understanding as well.
But in Australia we have "Baptist Union" churches which consider themselves protestant and are ruled by a controlling body which has all sorts of power over individual churches.
Not sure if this mob even exists in the USA, and of course they are not conservative.

[John81]

I know of Nazarene, Baptist and rock-n-roll churches that meet these qualifications and yet, they are not Scriptural New Testament Churches of the kind that Jesus Christ founded and died for.  There's a lot more to a Biblical Church TGL and it seems to me you could do well to study it.  Might I suggest:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/TractMoser.pdf

 

http://baptistbecause.com/Tracts/BapHandBk.pdf

 

 

I have John and I believe it's you who has changed.  I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that you used to be on the same page regarding Baptist history a couple of years ago, on this forum too.  If not, maybe you're reading history of the ecumenical crowd?

 

John the Baptist was the first Baptist and Christ set up the church.  Therefore, those holding to the tenants laid out in the Scriptures are New Testament Churches which in America today are known typically as Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Churches.  Some follow IFB but either out of cowardice or something else do not call themselves Baptists.  Maybe they hope to attract more members, and they probably will, goats looking for entertainment not sheep who need to feed on God's Word and fellowship and bear one another's burdens.  I gather from your statements that you reject the history outlined in the book, The Trail of Blood.

No, John the Baptist was not the first Baptist. John the Baptist was under the Old Covenant, he was the last of the OT prophets and died before Christ fulfilled the OT and established the New.

 

The Trail of Blood is frought with speculation and error among some truth. If one studies out the history of some of those groups claimed to be part of some "pure line" from the Apostles, it's clear that they held to some views that conservative Baptists reject, preach against and say we are to separate from. That in itself obviously precludes them from having been "just like Baptists today" or having come from a "pure line". Why Baptists, or anyone else, wants to follow the RCC concept of claiming to be able to trace a direct line to the Apostles is beyond me as such isn't even Scripturally sound. Scripture warns about divisions and disputes based upon geneology and tradition, which is what such is formed of.

 

The early Christ following churches were not like Baptists; Christ following Baptists are like the early Christ following churches. The former establishes the basis for the latter, not the other way around.

 

I love being Baptist, and that's how I identify myself, but elevating that name to great heights and trying to justify such by manipulating history is dangerous. The fact is, there were untold numbers of followers of Christ walking the earth and serving God for multiple centuries before any ever chose to identify themselves by the name Baptist. As we know from looking around us today or even taking a survey look of history, Baptists have not been one group of one mind. There are scores of varieties of Baptists, dozens of differing accounts as to the founding of Baptists, and a wide variety of biblical interpretation among Baptists.

 

Christian churches have been around for about 20 centuries and IFB churches have only been around for about one. Prior to the formation of IFBs, there were a wide variety of Baptist churches. The largest Baptist grouping in America split in the 1800s which gave us the SBC and those outside the South which went a different route. There were also Reformed Baptists, this Baptist and that Baptist. As we look around today there are even more varieties of Baptists.

 

Even if we only focus upon our IFB churches it quickly becomes obvious all are not following Christ in the same way. Some IFB churches are KJO, some KJP, while others use various MVs. When it comes to music there are vast differences in the styles of music, acceptable instruments, beliefs regarding choirs, hymn selections, use of CCM, Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel, etc. Standards of dress vary from almost Amish-like to almost like any mainstream church. Views on separation range from separating from almost everything to willingness to partner with some there are disagreements with for certain projects and occasions. There are different views along the Calvinist/Arminian front, the Lord's Supper, Baptism, church order, governance of the church, the end-times, tithing/NT giving, aspects regarding healing, finances, protection, provision, marriage/divorce/dating, child education, and on and on.

 

No matter how much we love our Baptist name, we need to face reality, and we need to have our focus upon Christ. The name folks choose to call their churches doesn't make them cowards or brave. What matters is whether or not they are followers of Christ or not. Being known as followers of Christ should be our main goal, not being known by a particular church name. I've noticed over the years as I've studied missionaries and spoke with many missionaries to foreign lands, that what stands out most is how those who come to Christ actually follow Christ and they follow Him so closely that all around, saved and unsaved alike, identify them as followers of Christ, not by the name on their church (if they have one) nor by the name of the church or denomination of the missionaries.

 

I am a follower of Christ and then I'm Baptist. Most often when I tell folks I'm Baptist that opens the door of conversation to go further as they either guess I'm SBC and I get to explain my "no" which opens the door for the Gospel, and the same is true if they guess some other branch of Baptist or they bring up some liberal Baptists or Westboro or something. In the conversation I continually point to Christ and steer the conversation back to Christ.

[John81]

Not ALL baptist churches are independent by definition.
I understand what you mean regarding SBC and that was my understanding as well.
But in Australia we have "Baptist Union" churches which consider themselves protestant and are ruled by a controlling body which has all sorts of power over individual churches.
Not sure if this mob even exists in the USA, and of course they are not conservative.

I "think" he was just addressing SBC and IFB churches. If that's the case, he's correct.

 

There are many other Baptist churches here in America too, and some of them are directly governed by a larger body and therefore the individual churches are not independent.

 

With there being so many different Baptist churches, denominational groupings, organizations, associations and such, one always needs to be mindful of just what one is talking about when they say "Baptist church". For instance, I often encounter folks who automatically think of the SBC when they hear the name "Baptist" so as soon as I say I'm Baptist they automatically think I'm SBC and direct their conversation from there; of which I then have to explain otherwise.

 

Unfortunately, even among some IFBs there are "camps" and while those in such camps are not officially aligned, there is an unwritten set of beliefs each camp knows their camp holds to and that deviation from such would either stir up trouble or mean they would no longer be able to be a part of that camp.

 

Another unfortunate aspect is how some of us IFBs spend so much time examining other IFBs and telling them what we think they are doing wrong rather than tending to the things in our own churches which need tending to.

 

Our concept and practice of "independent" is rather convoluted and all over the map.

 

How much better might some of us be if we set our eyes on Jesus, turning to our First Love, pursuing personal holiness and holiness within our own church so we can much better tend to the Great Commission.

[Invicta]

Not ALL baptist churches are independent by definition.
I understand what you mean regarding SBC and that was my understanding as well.
But in Australia we have "Baptist Union" churches which consider themselves protestant and are ruled by a controlling body which has all sorts of power over individual churches.
Not sure if this mob even exists in the USA, and of course they are not conservative.

 

 

We had a Baptist pastor from Brisbane apply to our church.  He was listed by the BU of Brisbane as a preacher but not accredited.  Whatever that may mean.  The church rejected him.

[JerryNumbers]

There’s churches out there that preach & teach about Hell, the virgin birth of Christ, & the rapture of the Saints yet they’re not true teaching New Testament Churches

 

The 1st thing to check out in a church is how they teach people to be saved, if its by works & baptizing, get out quick as possible. If they do not get that right nothing else matters. A very good example is the RCC & the churches of Christ. Yet there’s many more besides them.

 

Another thing, even those who teach works based salvation will use the words your saved by grace. And its been said that about 80% of the churches do not teach a person is saved by grace though faith in Jesus, not of self, not of works, its a gift.

[John81]

 

There’s churches out there that preach & teach about Hell, the virgin birth of Christ, & the rapture of the Saints yet they’re not true teaching New Testament Churches

 

The 1st thing to check out in a church is how they teach people to be saved, if its by works & baptizing, get out quick as possible. If they do not get that right nothing else matters. A very good example is the RCC & the churches of Christ. Yet there’s many more besides them.

 

Another thing, even those who teach works based salvation will use the words your saved by grace. And its been said that about 80% of the churches do not teach a person is saved by grace though faith in Jesus, not of self, not of works, its a gift.

 

Sad to say, but many churches are pastored by unsaved "worldly Christian" pastors.

[JerryNumbers]

A Church which freely associates with the S.B.C. is not "dependent" upon it for anything.  A church may choose either to, or not to cooperate within the S.B.C. at it's leisure.  They are not "dependent" in the least.

 

The S.B.C. has and claims absolutely no authority over any Baptist Church in it's association whatsoever.  They can't remove pastors any more than they can place them.  They can choose to disassociate with you, but, similarly, any Church can disassociate with the convention at any time it chooses to.  A church can be "S.B.C." one minute, and be "Independent" the next at it's leisure.  ALL Baptist Churches are "Independent" by definition.  A more accurate term to use would really be "un-affiliated" (not "Independent").  If your I.F.B. church chooses to associate by democratic vote to associate with the S.B.C. one year does it become non-Independent all of a sudden?....No.    Can it choose to dis-associate at a whim any time without repercussion later?....Yes.

 

Many (so-called) "Independent" Baptists churches are quite as affiliated as S.B.C. Churches are actually...They just belong to associations of "Independent" Baptists.  It gets rather ironic sometimes.

 

That is a fact. But that is not the problem with the SBC. 

 

There's many association of churches & each church is Independent of all other churches. The only power most associations have is to separate from a church that they think has left teaching what they call God's truths.

 

Yet there's many church associations that all churches are under the control of the association.

 

Methodist Churches are under a hierarchy as well as many others.

[JerryNumbers]

Not ALL baptist churches are independent by definition.
I understand what you mean regarding SBC and that was my understanding as well.
But in Australia we have "Baptist Union" churches which consider themselves protestant and are ruled by a controlling body which has all sorts of power over individual churches.
Not sure if this mob even exists in the USA, and of course they are not conservative.

 

We have them yet I know nothing about them.

[JerryNumbers]

Sad to say, but many churches are pastored by unsaved "worldly Christian" pastors.

 

Yes, many of them, & of course its highly likely if a church does not teach people how to be saved the pastor & majority of its members will be lost.

 

Sad to say there many that thinks if a church teaches about Jesus & calls their self Christian, its a church full of Christians.

 

Like a business man that was a Sunday school teacher, he stated, "If someone new moves to our town its not important what church they attend, its just important that they attend a church in our area." He did not want to make a firm stand for it might be bad for his business. Plus he came from a Methodist Church & soon after joining a Baptist Church he asked to teach a Sunday school class & they quickly made him a Sunday school class teacher!

[John81]

Yes, many of them, & of course its highly likely if a church does not teach people how to be saved the pastor & majority of its members will be lost.

 

Sad to say there many that thinks if a church teaches about Jesus & calls their self Christian, its a church full of Christians.

 

Like a business man that was a Sunday school teacher, he stated, "If someone new moves to our town its not important what church they attend, its just important that they attend a church in our area." He did not want to make a firm stand for it might be bad for his business. Plus he came from a Methodist Church & soon after joining a Baptist Church he asked to teach a Sunday school class & they quickly made him a Sunday school class teacher!

The saying of telling folks to attend church, any church, seems to be rather common; and is something I really dislike hearing. Who would ever say to a severely injured person to just let any doctor work on them, don't worry about what they know or how accurate they are? Attending the wrong church can be much worse than attending no church.

 

I have an aunt who taught Sunday school in a Methodist church for many years. There was no evidence of her being saved back then, nor since then, nor today.

 

The last time I looked for a church home the first thing I would do is try to find out if the pastor was saved. If not, I didn't look at that church any further; if he did seem to be saved I would then check into their statement of beliefs, and depending upon whether that was Scripturally sound or not, I would either move on or check to see if the pastor preached in accord with their biblically sound statement and if the church and it's members conducted themselves in like manner.

 

Just because a church calls itself Christian doesn't mean they actually follow Christ. I was amazed at how many churches in this area don't even seem to have saved pastors. I was also amazed at how many had seemingly good statements of faith but didn't preach, teach or act in accord with their own statement.

[The Glory Land]

This is just the beginning of sorrow too come, when true believers will have to meet underground or pay with his life, if he or she don't take the Mark of the beast .Can we be getting closer to end times. When Hearts of man turns cold as ice and judgement falls to earth We can be seeing it right now. But we don't want to see it.

[John81]

This is just the beginning of sorrow too come, when true believers will have to meet underground or pay with his life, if he or she don't take the Mark of the beast .Can we be getting closer to end times. When Hearts of man turns cold as ice and judgement falls to earth We can be seeing it right now. But we don't want to see it.

The return of the Lord is closer now than when we first believed!