Wondering

[war_eagle]

Which actions specifically? I believe God will ask me if:
1 - if I fed the hungry
2 - if I gave drink to the thirsty
3 - if I welcomed strangers
4 - if I clothed the naked
5 - if I took care of the ill
6 - if I visited those in prison

I'm sure this sounds familiar to you. Matthew 26: 31-46 Which I believe details how Jesus will separate the saved from the unsaved.

In other words, you believe we're saved by our works.

[war_eagle]

Keep in mind Catholicism believes in "salvation through God's Grace alone"
and NOT salvation by works.

But didn't you just say that God will divide the saved from the unsaved based on their works? What about all of the rituals Catholicism teaches are required to be saved, not to mention membership in the Catholic church, which is a work. What about the expiation of sins in Purgatory?

1 Cor 13:13, "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Under a Sola Fide theology, that verse does not make sense.

I imagine it wouldn't make sense if a person quoted it out of context, as you just did.

If love is greater than faith, how can anyone say we are saved by faith alone?

If we're not saved by works, then how can you say that we're saved by love, which is a work?

Gal 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through LOVE." Again we see love is necessary for salvation, and that faith "works" through love. Faith and works, just as Catholicism teaches.

Out of context. Paul isn't explaining how we're saved, but trying to "make peace" between Jews and Gentiles in the church.

1 Jn 3:23-24, "And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. All who keep His commandments abide in Him and He in them..." We have to believe (faith) and love one another (works). And remember, this is His commandment, not a suggestion, it is not optional.

Could you please quote the whole passage for us?

Mt 6:15, "...but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Can a person be saved if their sins are not forgiven? no. Is forgiving sins of others a work or an act of faith? I believe to forgive, is a work. If our sins are not forgiven, we can not be saved. Which means we can not be saved if we do not forgive others.

So then, you believe that we're not saved by works, but you admit that forgiveness is a work and that we can't be saved without doing this work?

Mt 19:16-17, "And behold, one came up to [Jesus] saying, 'Teacher, what GOOD DEED must I do to have eternal life?...'If you would enter life [Jesus said], keep the commandments.'" The only time Jesus is directly asked the question about what a person must DO to have eternal life, and what does He say? Believe in Me?, Have Faith in Me? You can do no deeds to inherit eternal life? No. Jesus said, "Keep the commandments." (works)

Have you kept the commandments?

Ephesians 2:10 points out that God has ordained GOOD WORKS for us beforehand, that we should walk in them. God has ordained that we do good works that He has prepared for us to do. It is His will that we do them. The question is: What if we don't do them? Are we still saved? Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the WILL of My Father Who is in Heaven." If God's will is to do good works, then we better do them right?

How ironic that you would cite Eph 2:10 out of context that way. Had you quoted the passage in it's proper context, you would have seen that just two verses earlier, we're told: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

[war_eagle]

"verily' date=' verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (john 3:5) "water and of the Spirit" symbolizes baptism[/quote']

No, actually, it doesn't.



And don't forget, the Bible also says that Judas hung himself so maybe it really means suicide.

[war_eagle]

Keeping in mind that the RCC interprets the Bible as teaching that good works are a part of obtaining salvation.

BIngo! That is precisely why we cannot consider Catholics to be Christians.

[ptwild]

Here in lies a big differences between the ancient churches and the relatively younger branches of Christianity. Not a single person mentioned in the Bible ever actually read the Bible. For almost 100 years after the death of Christ there was no Bible as we know it today. The vast majority of Christian thought and teaching was decided before the pen ever hit the pad and it was taught without the need of a written record. That's were the Mass comes from. It's not in the Bible, but there is no doubt that the apostles and early Christians, themselves of course being Jews or converted by Jews, practiced a ceremonial gathering similar to Temple, which we know today as the Mass.

I do not agree with Julie that workds have anything to do with salvation. It is by grace through faith, and nothing more. However, if a person has this faith, they are saved not matter what. So what if they believe that they also need to do other things? They still have that saving faith. Julie has plainly stated that your works are useless without faith. It is nothing more than a lack of understanding, or possibly bigotry, to say that no Catholics are Christians.

[HappyChristian]

pt - if someone believes that anything apart from Jesus Christ can save them, they are not truly trusting Christ. It is Christ + nothing. Those who believe that works are a part of salvation are wrong - and thus not saved. The Bible clearly teaches that works come after salvation, not as part. I know you know this, but Julie said that they believe it's part of it.

And, as war asked - what verse or combination of verses teach that children are to detail their misdeeds (? misdeeds seems a little watered down...the Bible calls it sin!) to a priest and receive penance from him? That certainly isn't trusting Christ! It's trusting a man who is just as much a sinner as any of the rest of us.

Works may be considered useless without faith...but just what is that faith in? If it is not in the finished work of Christ on calvary alone it is not saving faith!

[war_eagle]

Here in lies a big differences between the ancient churches and the relatively younger branches of Christianity. Not a single person mentioned in the Bible ever actually read the Bible.

Actually, 2/3 of the books that make up the Bible were already in existence and in wide circulation among the church by the time the last book was written.

That's were the Mass comes from. It's not in the Bible, but there is no doubt that the apostles and early Christians, themselves of course being Jews or converted by Jews, practiced a ceremonial gathering similar to Temple, which we know today as the Mass.

Then why does so much of what happens in a Catholic mass contradict scripture?

However, if a person has this faith, they are saved not matter what. So what if they believe that they also need to do other things? They still have that saving faith.

No they don't. Faith plus works equals works and Ephesians 2 makes it clear that works cannot and do not save.

Julie has plainly stated that your works are useless without faith. It is nothing more than a lack of understanding, or possibly bigotry, to say that no Catholics are Christians.

Actually, you cannot be a Christian and a Catholic because Christian doctrine and Catholic doctrine are in contradiction to one another. Go ahead and call me a bigot if you like, but you simply cannot believe in such things as infused righteousness, the necessity of works to be saved, and Purgatory and be a Christian.

[ptwild]

pt - if someone believes that anything apart from Jesus Christ can save them, they are not truly trusting Christ. It is Christ + nothing. Those who believe that works are a part of salvation are wrong - and thus not saved. The Bible clearly teaches that works come after salvation, not as part. I know you know this, but Julie said that they believe it's part of it.

And, as war asked - what verse or combination of verses teach that children are to detail their misdeeds (? misdeeds seems a little watered down...the Bible calls it sin!) to a priest and receive penance from him? That certainly isn't trusting Christ! It's trusting a man who is just as much a sinner as any of the rest of us.

Works may be considered useless without faith...but just what is that faith in? If it is not in the finished work of Christ on calvary alone it is not saving faith!

That's just it Happy. (good to hear from you by the way). The apostles and early church taught things and practices that are not in the bible. I do not believe that one must go to a priest to confess their sins, but I do believe that it is a Christian's responsibility to recognize one's sins and to confess them to God before asking for forgiveness. The practice of going to a priest to do this is as old as Christianity itself. Even the Anglican church offers this sacremant, but in no way requires it. (I have never confessed anything to a Priest other than his wife's good cooking :smile ). And Catholics, to my understanding, do not believe that the priest is the one who offers penance, but God himself. The priest is just the witness to the confession.

[war_eagle]

pt - if someone believes that anything apart from Jesus Christ can save them' date=' they are not truly trusting Christ. It is Christ + nothing. Those who believe that works are a part of salvation are wrong - and thus not saved. The Bible clearly teaches that works come after salvation, not as part. I know you know this, but Julie said that they believe it's part of it.[/quote']

Agreed. That's why the Bible says that we're created unto good works, not saved by good works. Good works follow naturally as a result of the new nature we've received upon being born again, not as a means to be born again.



Catholicism is very big on expiating one's own sins.

[war_eagle]

That's just it Happy. (good to hear from you by the way). The apostles and early church taught things and practices that are not in the bible.

If they taught anything contrary to scripture, then they were wrong. Period.

The practice of going to a priest to do this is as old as Christianity itself.

But is it Biblical? Clearly not.

[ptwild]

Actually, 2/3 of the books that make up the Bible were already in existence and in wide circulation among the church by the time the last book was written.



Then why does so much of what happens in a Catholic mass contradict scripture?



No they don't. Faith plus works equals works and Ephesians 2 makes it clear that works cannot and do not save.



Actually, you cannot be a Christian and a Catholic because Christian doctrine and Catholic doctrine are in contradiction to one another. Go ahead and call me a bigot if you like, but you simply cannot believe in such things as infused righteousness, the necessity of works to be saved, and Purgatory and be a Christian.

Exactly which was the last book written? The books are in the order in which they were voted on at Nicea. And it is utterly impossible for 2/3 of any book to be "in wide circulation" before the printing press. There is absolutely no credible evidence to back up your assertion. The structure of the ancient church is based on Judahism, considering that all the apostles and the majority of their followers were Jews. The early church was in existence long before the bible.

How does the Mass contradict scripture, other than your misunderstanding of the Mass? I take it from your name that your education comes from the school associated with that phrase. I know that unsubstantiated claims and plain falshoods are often acceptable to a person with such an education, but it takes a certain type of ungentlemanyl arrogance to go about making such wild and misguided assertions. Read a book that isn't propoganda, or better yet attend a Mass yourself, before making such foolish statements.

[ptwild]

If they taught anything contrary to scripture, then they were wrong. Period.



But is it Biblical? Clearly not.

These assertions assume that the Bible as we know it today is the absolute only guide to the Christian faith, which is illogical considering that Christianity existed before and without the Bible. Several aspects of Christianity are not found in the Bible, such as for instance the Christian wedding ceremony, or the singing of hymns followed by a sermon, which were both practices of the ancient church, not guidelines found in the Bible.

[HappyChristian]

Mass, as Catholics practice it, is the recreation of the literal body and blood of Christ, pt. That isn't scriptural. We know that, at the last supper, Christ was speaking figuratively of the bread and wine - pointing to the fact that He would be offering His body and blood for us.

And, no, the priest "absolves" the sin, pt. The Bible teaches us that Christ is the only mediator.

[Guest Guest]

These assertions assume that the Bible as we know it today is the absolute only guide to the Christian faith' date=' which is illogical considering that Christianity existed before and without the Bible. Several aspects of Christianity are not found in the Bible, such as for instance the Christian wedding ceremony, or the singing of hymns followed by a sermon, which were both practices of the ancient church, not guidelines found in the Bible.[/quote']
Sir, you have a problem there...

People such as Peter, John, etc., etc., were all followers of Jesus Christ, and heard His exact teachings, which became part of the Bible itself; that is, the Gospels.

For anyone who thinks Catholics are Christians, look at this:
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism1.html
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism2.html
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[ptwild]

The Queen is yet to Knight me, so please don't call me Sir. I didn't say anything in the Bible was false. I merely stated the obvious undeniable fact that Christianity, and its practices, existed before the Bible that we know today.

And although I'm not Catholic and totally disagree with several of their beliefs and practices, I will not belittle or degrade myself by relying on such propoganda smut aimed at spreading lies and bigotry as the the website you posted unabashedly does.