Refuting The April 2009 Baptist Challenge...

[OLD fashioned preacher]

No problem.

 

But there is a flip side for many things & people will use it to try to prove, it seems, that there's other ways besides God's way that are OK.

 

For instants, I firmly believe the Bible teaches us that a believer is not suppose to marry & unbeliever. I've stated that before with someone saying, well I did, & it worked out quite well, so that's not true.

Agreed, but neither of these cases has the preacher touching the money in any form. Case #2 is looking at figures to make sure everything balances and showing the treasurer any entry mistakes made (number transposition being most common) and wanting out of that. That one is the only real problem situation of the two.

 

 I don't see where they can be any complaint over Case #1 -- the church said "let's increase the pastor's salary" and the pastor responded "whoa, I'll manage on what I currently make, the church has more pressing  needs right now".

[JerryNumbers]

My come back, "No Problem," meant I full understood the situation you spoke of.

 

I've know several pastors that refuse an increase, of course if they pay to much, its quite easy to give it right back to the church. & I know one that did that for over 1 year. I really do not know if anyone else in our church knew that he was doing that.

 

There are situation where the pastor may have to, we can get into some pretty tough situations while having to take up the slack, yet in such a situation it would be very wise to have at least one member do the counting with him while all member knows how all money is spent. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

In my eight years of pastoring, I never took a salary and only took a Special Collection" on two occasions. One occasion was my fifth anniversary as pastor and the body took up the collection as a love gift. The other occasion, I don't remember.

[Calvary]

nothing wrong with giving ten percent of one's finances, if they chose to do that of their own accord.

 

So why say anything further??

But,... If they are giving because The Lord told me to give 10%" they are mistaken and giving for the wrong reason. God is not going to contradict His Word, and man should not contradict it either.

 

I wasn´t talking about any "they"... I was speaking for myself. Yet still you cavil.

You say you tithe because you were taught to tithe. Whoever taught you to tithe did not understand God's tithe.

 

I say tithe because it´s a mathematical calculation. Where did I say someone taught me to tithe? You are contentious for no cause.

God's Word tells us to give as we purpose in our own hearts to give. That means WE choose what we will give, God will not tell us what amount, Otherwise our giving is of compulsion.

 

I believe I was pretty clear on what I purpose to do with my money, yet still you find reason to fault, argue, debate...!! My question was... What it is to you?

Further, you can call your ten percent the Lord's tithe from now until the Rapture, it is still not the Lord's tithe. God defined what His tithe consists of and to say His tithe is anything else than what He said is to not only contradict Him, but to add to His Word.

 

I never used that phrase. Why do you argue straw men against me? I simply stated what I have purposed to do in my heart, yet still you rail...

Ten percent of one's money is not the Lord's tithe.

 

Who said it was?? Ohh.... Not me. You did.

 

God bless,

calvary

[Ukulelemike]

Financial account really should be in other hands, IMO. I do commend you for letting the congregation in on decisions regarding the Church.

I would like to not be the holder of the purse, unfortunately, there is no one else I can trust with it.

 

Now, before you misunderstand, let me explain: Of the few people we have, about 1/4 are, how shall I say it, damaged. By damaged, I mean they aren't capable of handling money for the church. Mentally. They aren't stupid, just...not capable. The ones who are, well, normal, most basically have chosen not to actually formally join the church. Not sure why-people just don't like to join churches. Some have attended for years, at least one is actively involved in the services, they just have not taken that step. Some others refuse to work with banks.

When I was first here, for about the first five years, we had a lady who took care of the finances, but she neer liked doing it, and as soon as she had the chance, she turned it over to me. So, honestly, at this point, there is just no one else to do it.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I would like to not be the holder of the purse, unfortunately, there is no one else I can trust with it.
 
Now, before you misunderstand, let me explain: Of the few people we have, about 1/4 are, how shall I say it, damaged. By damaged, I mean they aren't capable of handling money for the church. Mentally. They aren't stupid, just...not capable. The ones who are, well, normal, most basically have chosen not to actually formally join the church. Not sure why-people just don't like to join churches. Some have attended for years, at least one is actively involved in the services, they just have not taken that step. Some others refuse to work with banks.
When I was first here, for about the first five years, we had a lady who took care of the finances, but she neer liked doing it, and as soon as she had the chance, she turned it over to me. So, honestly, at this point, there is just no one else to do it.

understood. Between rock and hard place there.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

You say you were taught to tithe, and then turn around and say no one taught you to tithe. Sound confusing. You had to have been taught this "mathematical formula" somewhere. It certainly was not God's Word that taught you, for it teaches the tithe was abolished along with all the other ordinances written in the Law.

[Calvary]

You say you were taught to tithe, and then turn around and say no one taught you to tithe. Sound confusing. You had to have been taught this "mathematical formula" somewhere. It certainly was not God's Word that taught you, for it teaches the tithe was abolished along with all the other ordinances written in the Law.

You are confused, and are an angry man. You debate where there is none. You harangue when all concede, you seem (to me) a contentious fellow. Unless you know my heart why do you still find fault. You insist that a man purpose in his heart and when I do, you yet find fault. You are never satisfied.

 

I was taught by the scriptures about giving. After having reward that blessed book some 40 times from cover to cover I have yet to find anywhere where my giving should be a 5th part. A 3rd part or an 8th part.

 

My calculations come from reading about a tenth part (a tenth part of whatever, doesn´t matter, I never read anything about a 6th part, have you??). The Bible mentions the word tithe some 14 times. And it doesn´t limit the tithe to just the priesthood as you have falsely stated. All the children of Israel were given to a tithe. It was of ALL THE INCREASE.

God´s principles are eternal. He told me to give. He told me to give generously, with a cheerful heart. He told me to bring the missionary forward on his journey. He told that a leader of the church could expect a to be sustained by said church.  If you didn´t, well good for you, but you seem more a braggart on that then a humble servant. After having prayerfully reading and searching for the Lord´s will for me on this I determined in my heart I would start with what the Bible only mentioned ever. A tithe. You have a problem with whatever folks do. Perhaps because you fail to grow and abound in this grace also you are smitten in your heart that God´s children happily give of their goods, while you slink and slither over what a child of God cheerfully does for His work. Who are you to judge another man´s servant. I will stand or fall on my own relation to God, not your caviling and high mindedness.

 

Good day sir.

[Calvary]

Was lying abolished in the ordinances? Was adultery? Was honoring your mother and father. That argument is so pathetic that I can´t believe you trot it out here for real Bible believers to assay.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I can't believe you reject what the Word of God says the tithe is and that His word says it was abolished

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Calvary,

The increase is explained as being food. Not everything, despite your claim. Read the book cover to cover forty times, eh? Seems you would see that the tithe was limited to Isreal only, that the first tithe once a year was given to the Levites, who took a tithe of that to the priests. Both Leviticus 27 and 2 Chronicles 31 reveal to the reader the this tithe was food.. The festival tithe was eaten by the Levite, the tither and his family. Since it was eaten, one can only conclude that it, like the Levitical tithe, was only food. The poor tithe was kept on the tither's property to feed the poor of Israel and the foreigner visiting the city... Again, only food. How one can read the Word of God cover to cover forty times and come to a conclusion that the Lord's tithes were of non-food products is beyond me.

That tithe you say the Bible taught you nowhere resembles the tithe taught in the Bible. Rather, it was invented behind the walls of the Roman Catholic system.

[ASongOfDegrees]

Calvary,

The increase is explained as being food. Not everything, despite your claim.

I think it involved a little more than just food.

 

Numbers 18

 

[8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
[10] In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
[11] And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
[12] All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
[13] And whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat of it.
[14] Every thing devoted in Israel shall be thine.
[15] Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
[16] And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
[17] But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
[18] And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.
[19] All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
[20] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

[Calvary]

I think it involved a little more than just food.

 

Numbers 18

 

[8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
[10] In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
[11] And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
[12] All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
[13] And whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat of it.
[14] Every thing devoted in Israel shall be thine.
[15] Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
[16] And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
[17] But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
[18] And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.
[19] All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
[20] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

 

 

Oh I have no doubt that it involved a little more than food. This man is  falling down in opinions, not standing in Christ. His ilk are always the same. They never answer a a questions straight up. I asked if the big three were abolished and he clammed up. Just like I knew he would. So according to his logic, we can lie, rob and cheat on our wives, it´s all good, those ordinances were abolished don´t ya know!!

 

God bless,

calvary

 

PS.

I am shocked that the majority of you as well clam up under this yokels hog wash. It´s truly disappointing.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Think again...

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

The phrase "whether of" occurs only five times in the KJV.  In each of those instances it is used, all that it is speaking of is revealed to the reader.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 27:21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree,... every tenth animal that passeth under the rod.
Whether of the tw
Whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness. 

The phrase "whether of" is clearly explained in each instance.


Further...

2 Chronicles clearly shows that the tithe taken to the Levites was food.

2 Chronicles 31:10 And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the LORD, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the LORD hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.

What was left in heaps was what could be eaten. 

And Malachi reveals that the tithe was food as well

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

You'll not find one verse in the entire Bible where money is referred to as "meat." 

Sorry, ASoD, but you can't find anything other than food tithed in the Mosaic Law.

To argue that Numbers 18:1-20 is speaking of tithing is easily proven to be false by verse 15.  Every thing that opens the matrix is to be tithed?  That would mean humans were tithed, since they are born via the opening of the matrix. 

Nice try, but it fails miserably.

 

[ASongOfDegrees]

 

Sorry, ASoD, but you can't find anything other than food tithed in the Mosaic Law.

To argue that Numbers 18:1-20 is speaking of tithing is easily proven to be false by verse 15.  Every thing that opens the matrix is to be tithed?  That would mean humans were tithed, since they are born via the opening of the matrix. 

Nice try, but it fails miserably.

 

Yes, humans were tithed then redeemed. It's clear from Numbers 18:15 that this was the case.