David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

[Anon]

My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

[John81]

My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

You seem to be asking if there is a clear line on these matters and that seems to be part of the problem, that there are no clear lines with regards to some of these things.

Should a sound pastor who has a sound church be publically condemned because he preaches at another church, or convention, or gathering that may not be acceptable to all others?

Our associate pastor faced this when he was asked to preach in a Methodist church in a town with only a hundred or so people living there. Eventually the question came down to a matter, for him, of whether or not he was free to preach without restrictions. Once informed there would be no restrictions on his preaching, our associate pastor decided (after much prayer, consultation with our pastor and church board) that for some at that church this might be their only opportuntiy to actually hear a clear presentation of the Gospel so he accepted to preach that one Sunday. He was able to present a biblically sound sermon and clearly present the only way of salvation.

Should our associate pastor be condemned for preaching in a Methodist church one Sunday or should we praise God for the opportunity he had to share the Gospel with many who may have never heard the biblical Gospel before? In this particular case I believe our associate pastor did the right thing.

That said, I don't believe every invitation to preach in any church should be accepted. This is one of those areas where I believe it's more of a border area rather than a simple line. Some churches require advance approval of a sermon before it's preached in their church. Some churches place restrictions or requirements upon a pastor. Some churches are in clear violation in any number of areas and preaching in them would attach ones name to some of these matters. Etc. I believe in some cases a sound preacher can preach in other venues and should not be condemned for such. There are also cases where a sound preacher should not be preaching, and most sound preachers can recognize this.

So, if someone with some association with the Sword is involved in something some have problems with, does that mean everyone else associated with the Sword in any way should be considered tainted, in need of public rebuke, or such?

If we follow the rigid line some draw, that would mean none of us would ever be able to venture outside our own churches without risk of being condemned by even a hint of association.

We have to guard against many things, but in doing so we also have to guard against friendly fire. Sometimes it seems we are too willing to accept friendly fire and the collateral damage it causes rather than trying to prevent such from occuring.

[Seth Doty]

He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.

[irishman]

I am surprised that so many here agree with Mr. Cloud, and take his words as gospel! Isn't it that same thing that he accuses the other churches of? Ironic, osn't it.

I have read many of his posts and given scriptural answers to his false teachings. His terms "easy believism" and easy prayism" leave the Lord out of the work. Only God knows a man's heart, not Mr. Cloud. Where does the Bible say we have to have a "hard prayer"? Or a long, bible study type prayer to lead someone to the Lord?

He also has a strange idea of repentance, as we have already hashed out on previous posts. Go ahead and exalt him as the high and mighty poo-pah and form your opinions by his words instead of God's Word, and let's see how it turn out.

I believe that when he runs out of edifying and useful thoughts, he finds someone to pick on, which makes him look better too. By the way, saying "you have not read my books" is a great plug for the selling of his books. Not a bad ploy for making a buck.

[John81]

I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.

If Cloud were just another person I would agree, no big deal, but Cloud says he's been called to have a "warning ministry" and he has a significant outreach. That makes it a "big deal" in the sense it's more than just someone with an opinion, it's another ministry claiming it's their duty to call out these people.

While I sometimes agree with Cloud, I've noticed he becomes very defensive when someone confronts him on some aspects of his ministry. Oftentimes he even becomes defensive when asked rather simple questions.

If someone is outright, clearly biblically wrong, then point that out, put forth the Scripture which clearly addresses this, and leave it at that.

The problem is, Cloud often engages in much more and he often draws a very wide circle of "association" which he uses to name more names or strike at.

[Guest]

Oh, I agree, just seems like what was said above, that more and more churches will continue to fall away and the number of "right" churches will diminish.

My old church back in SW MO quit "associating" with BBFI years ago because of their falling away. Even the "school" my former pastor went to apparently has been slipping away as well. He went there in the mid-80's, he and others that I've met that went to this particular school said that looking back they could see the "beginnings" of the falling away from Biblical standards and toward worldliness. My former pastor would not attend that school in its current state.

Although I like the preaching of one particular preacher up here in a big city IFB church, he has attended the Lancaster Leadership conference more than once to preach there, and also has some of Mr. Chappell's books on display in his church.

I may have to write and ask Bro. Cloud what position he takes on the FBF and FBFI.

Edited to add...

The reason for my interest is I know more preachers who were in the FBF and FBFI from the 80s and 90s. Edited June 20, 2012 by 1Tim115

[Pastorj]

To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

[John81]

To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.

[Anon]

To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

Thank you PastorJ. My point exactly.

I've really liked David Cloud in the past but I think he has overstepped his bounds and he's begun to criticize things that are none of his business, and to criticize men that he has no business criticizing.

Frankly, who preaches at the Sword Conference has NOTHING. TO. DO. With our local church. Its nothing but preacher-gossip!

And for Cloud to say "Well I know your pastor is a good man who has a good church BUT I was still right in calling him out." Really???? Did GOD tell you that or something? Because God says to "touch not God's anointed" and "Do my prophet no harm". I realize that's OT but still, God will protect a man of God who is right with Him. Call out a heretic? Yeah. Call out someone who preached in a church you wouldn't preach in? (And we're not talking Mormon or cult, we're talking Independent Baptist!!!!!) No way. I don't see God as pleased with this in the least.

Not happy with Cloud right now. Its none of Cloud's business where an INDEPENDENT pastor preaches and its none of anybody else's business, either, saving for that man's local church, and God.

[Anon]

I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.

I want to say if I was one of those...then....I seriously apologize. There was one time I felt David Cloud was awesome. Since then I'm really unhappy with how far he takes this "warning" thing. Its like NOTHING in IFB pleases him anymore. Its getting a little ridiculous.

[John81]

I want to say if I was one of those...then....I seriously apologize. There was one time I felt David Cloud was awesome. Since then I'm really unhappy with how far he takes this "warning" thing. Its like NOTHING in IFB pleases him anymore. Its getting a little ridiculous.

I don't recall you doing that, but we are kind of on the same page. I once liked much from Cloud but over the years he seems to have become more antagonistic and also very defensive and quick to strike out against those who dare to ask him a question about his words or ministry. It does seem that he is drawing such a hard, sharp line, which goes in a small circle, that in order to meet his words we would have to isolate ourselves within the confines of our own churches, associate with no one else, fellowship with no one else, not preach, teach or reach out to anyone else. I don't think that's what he's trying to achieve, but it does seem to be the end result if we follow his words completely.

No doubt mainstream Christianity forsakes most aspects of separation, but it's possible to go too far with separation also. If we find ourselves hunkered down in individual fortress churches, having nothing to do with any others, we will be unable to fulfill many aspects we are called to in Scripture.

[OFIB Preacher]

I'm not bashing, but I guess that I'm a little surprised that the number of "right" churches must be less than I thought. Much of what Cloud says is accurate. If it wasn't for some of his warnings I would definitely be less "in-the-know." When I moved from MO to OH I figured it would be difficult to find a good church (and one that doesn't have a hint of falling away), and I was right. I miss my old church back in MO in many ways.

Unfortunately, the number of right church is going down, not up. Most of these "church plants" I'm seeing/hearing about, are disgruntled folk who just want to have things their way, or neos/liberals disguising themselves as IFBs.

[OFIB Preacher]

My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

All due respect ma'am, I think you're out of line yourself. The way you word your posts and the fact that you're a Moderator up here, I'd probably be safe in saying that you run your husband/house too. Get off the computer and back in your place. I'm done here. Good night all.

[Seth Doty]

All due respect ma'am, I think you're out of line yourself. The way you word your posts and the fact that you're a Moderator up here, I'd probably be safe in saying that you run your husband/house too. Get off the computer and back in your place. I'm done here. Good night all.

Obviously she is a little upset because she feels like her husband was disrespected. Perfectly normal reaction. Your out of line and your accusations are foolish. Chill. :coffee2: Edited June 20, 2012 by Seth-Doty

[Anon]

All due respect ma'am, I think you're out of line yourself. The way you word your posts and the fact that you're a Moderator up here, I'd probably be safe in saying that you run your husband/house too. Get off the computer and back in your place. I'm done here. Good night all.

Um...excuse me?

You have no clue who I am or how my HUSBAND'S household is run, nor what my "place" is. And you have no right to tell me what that "place" is.

If you think calling out good solid men of God and telling hundreds of churches that he is "wrong" by name, then that's fine...but I have every right to come here and discuss the fact that he just smeared the good name of a good man of God.