Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[Calvary]

@ pastorj and John81
Sadly, what you describe I have seen myself. MIssions boards are another story for me. I don't have one, don't like them too much but do not oppose them altogether. I think like a lot of things, they started out good,but them get sidetracked and bogged down with rules.

I came to my field with less than 500 a month. Don't recommend that, but that's what we did. I have arounbd 2600 to 3200 a month, depending on which month. I looked at a board a few years ago and asked them what I needed to live in the Yucatan Peninsula. They said 6000 a month. I said, YEAH! Where do I sign up! lol
They figure in travel, insurance, cars, housing etc. I figure only on food and a simple house that is just like the folks that go to our chures live in. No more, no less.

I know of some men here in the Peninsula who have that lavish thing you mentioned. They live a lot better here than they would or did up there in the states. They have maids, nice houses, pools and other stuff that I guess they need. I can't stand in judgment however, I do not know them personally.

These are the type of things that make men like SFIC get heated about not supporting missions. But they are not the norm. Most missionaires, be they IFB (like me) or even others that I have known, Presbyterians and such, live to please God, do the work and get folks saved.

John81 makes a a point. The men I know that live high seem to have smaller works, less activity and not muich to shout about. A national knows what you really care about. You can't fool them.

Lets not focus on the bad apples, lets focus on the BIG PICTURE, souls, souls souls.

God bless,
Calvay

[John81]

Lets not focus on the bad apples, lets focus on the BIG PICTURE, souls, souls souls.

God bless,
Calvay

Amen!

This is one of the reasons we help support a native missionary in India and also our church helps support a missionary from here that helps train native missionaries. It's all about get the Gospel to those lost souls.

[Anon]

I do hope that since "Standing Firm" thinks its Biblical for a man to go to Africa without a penny in his pocket, that he knows this by personal experience and that he has done so himself, to show, of course, how it is to be done. I would be interested to hear his testimony how he has been a missionary without any financial support.

Many people seem to like to use the Apostle Paul, who did not like to take much money from the churches, to "prove" that pastors shouldn't take much money. However, Paul plainly says that he prefers it for himself, but that churches have the responsibility (as the OP so thoroughly explained) to take care of their man of God.

Everybody's situation is different. Costs of living are different. A pastor can starve in the Northeast on the same salary a guy down south would be comfortable on. So we have to be careful not to "compare ourselves among ourselves" because its unwise. What is important is that the church is WILLING to care for their pastor. If they cannot, that's fine. If they WILL not, then they will not get the blessing of God upon them. Paul clearly teaches that giving is not to benefit the pastor, but it benefits the GIVERS. We give to a pastor because it returns God's blessings on our lives. A church that tries to make their pastor "live by faith" (when they are all living very comfortably) will not be as blessed of God as a generous church will be.

I believe a pastor should be able to live like the median of his church. If he is in a poor church, he should not be rich. And if he is in a rich church, he should not be poor. (Not rich, but not poor.) Missionaries need EXTRA because they have to both support their family AND their church ministry, plus they are not able (usually) to find supplemental work in other countries.

I am against pastors leaving churches for a "higher paying position", however on the other hand God clearly teaches if a man cannot provide for his family, he's worse than an infidel. Churches should keep that in mind...if they are forcing their pastor to choose between serving the church or providing for his family, they are hurting themselves and the pastor may have to find a church who can at least support him enough to feed his family and allow him to serve.

Again...be careful about "comparing ourselves among ourselves". Each church is different. Each situation is different. Some missionaries and pastors have wrong motives, but only God knows that, not us. Some missionaries and pastors are being greatly blessed of God! And they may have a little extra in the way of finances...and that is not for me or you to judge, but we should be happy God is blessing them so. Some people may be accused of having too much money, but little does anyone know, those people are giving a good portion of their funds back to the church. So, it is not for us to decide who is right and who is wrong. It is enough to say "God commands churches to care for their pastors" and then allow churches to do that to the best of their ability.

Regarding missionaries...I feel sorry for missionaries today. In the Bible, people would provide for the missionaries wherever they went. Its a totally different culture today. The ONLY way missionaries can afford to start churches to be sent out of a local church and to have local church support, and the only way for churches to know who needs support is for the missionary to go around and present their ministry. Believe me, I am SURE missionaries would LOVE to just "go to the field" but unless they want to starve within a month...deputation is a necessary evil.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I do think you should go back and read my posts again. I never said a man should not go to Africa without a penny in his pocket.

What I have said, and I stand firmly on that statement, is that it is not biblical for a man to go out on deputation asking Churches for support. There is not one instance of any of the Apostles doing such. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly states in the book of the Acts of the Apostles that he did not accept money for his missionary work. In 2 Corinthians, Paul told the congregation that he had "robbed" Churches when taking wages of them.

If God ever calls me to go to Africa, I am sure he will provide the means for me to get there without my having to beg others.

[Anon]

I do think you should go back and read my posts again. I never said a man should not go to Africa without a penny in his pocket.

What I have said, and I stand firmly on that statement, is that it is not biblical for a man to go out on deputation asking Churches for support. There is not one instance of any of the Apostles doing such. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly states in the book of the Acts of the Apostles that he did not accept money for his missionary work. In 2 Corinthians, Paul told the congregation that he had "robbed" Churches when taking wages of them.

If God ever calls me to go to Africa, I am sure he will provide the means for me to get there without my having to beg others.

I honestly would like to know how you propose someone get to Africa? It is very easy for you to say "Oh, I'd just drop everything and take my wife and four kids to Africa". But you haven't done so.

Unfortunately it does cost money...probably about $5000, to fly a family of 6 to Africa. Then it costs money to find a place to live, and it costs money to eat and to purchase acceptable clothing to live among the people.

I don't have $10,000 sitting around in my bank account ready to go to Africa...do you?

Are you the type of person who believes you should never ask anyone to pray for you because God can supply all your needs without anybody knowing what they are? Because that's not Biblical. Paul himself told the churches what he needed. He asked them to bring him things in prison. He asked them to pray. He asked them to take care of their pastors. He asked them to take up a collection which would be received the next time his people were in town.

I don't understand your position. I know there are annoying missionaries out there, trust me, but there's no other way to go about it these days. I'm interested in hearing your proposals, however.

BTW your interpretation of Paul's words in the above post are taken out of context in the passage.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I've been to Afri

I honestly would like to know how you propose someone get to Africa? It is very easy for you to say "Oh, I'd just drop everything and take my wife and four kids to Africa". But you haven't done so.

Having been born in Africa, I can honestly say I have been there. My American parents were there. And guess what? They didn't have to beg money to get there either.

The one thing you, and others want to dismiss is the fact that where God guides, God provides.

We always say that God doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called. He equips those He calls into the ministry with all that they have need of. He provided for me for the eight years I pastored from the late 80's to the mid 90's. Sure, there were times when things got tight. But I held onto faith and God always provided..

Apparently, He doesn't work like that today... if I am to believe many on this board.

As to Paul's asking for things, you fail to admit that he never once asked for money for himself. When he instructed the Church at Corinth to take up a collection, it was not for himself, it was for the poor saints in Macedonia.

What do I propose? Well, for starters, if one truly believes that God is calling him or her to the mission field, how about exercising faith in God to supply the need? Is He not able do do so? Does not His Word say "Ye have not because ye ask not?" And believe me, asking Him to provide money when He calls you into any kind of ministry is not asking amiss.

And Paul's asking people to bring him things? It was always things that were already his. He never asked people to give him anything that he did not already own. Edited April 5, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

Where did your parents get the money to live in Africa? Or did they save up their own money for the plane tickets and then lived off the land in Africa? Did they already have a large savings account to live off of when they arrived?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The means for living and travel were given to them. The point is, they did not have to beg for it.

[Anon]

The means for living and travel were given to them. The point is, they did not have to beg for it.

But I want to know how it was given to them, and by what means. Please share.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

What difference does it make how? The fact is, they did not have to ask anyone for it.

[2Tim215]

What difference does it make how? The fact is, they did not have to ask anyone for it.

It makes all the difference. It substantiates your claims and if they "did not have to beg" then could only have come from God or the world. If from God then why not give Him the Glory He deserves. This is like saying "I am Saved" but when asked how and by whom stating "What difference does it make how? The fact is, I am and you are not". I agree with Kitagirl - PLEASE SHARE!

[Anon]

What difference does it make how? The fact is, they did not have to ask anyone for it.

Yep, as ITim said...it is extremely relevant to this discussion. If your example of your parents is a model for which all missionaries should follow, then you should be eager to tell us how it was done.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It makes all the difference. It substantiates your claims and if they "did not have to beg" then could only have come from God or the world. If from God then why not give Him the Glory He deserves. This is like saying "I am Saved" but when asked how and by whom stating "What difference does it make how? The fact is, I am and you are not". I agree with Kitagirl - PLEASE SHARE!

All we have we get from God. God gave my father the ability to work for his living... just as He did Paul and the Apostles.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Just can't stand the fact that some people believe that God provides for those He sends, can you?

[Anon]

Just can't stand the fact that some people believe that God provides for those He sends, can you?

Nope, we just want to know why you believe so strongly against deputation, though you refuse to tell us how your missionary parents got their funding, and then you are resorting to sarcasm.

Not a good foundation for a belief.