The Gap (Daniel 11:33-35)

[Invicta]

Dispensational theology isn't about the people who believe it and teach it, it's about what the Bible LITERALLY teaches. It does not "tamper" with God's word, it interprets it. Dispensational theology makes distinctions between Israel and the Church. The "gap" in Daniel is NOT inserted, it's already there. There are many Messianic prophecies which have a double fulfillment and the text used in this video (Daniel 11:33-35) is one of them.

The allegorical method of interpreting biblical prophecies "blurs" the distinction between Israel and the Church. The result is obvious. The "gap" doesn't exist for those who allegorize and spiritualize Bible prophecy. And you say dispensational theology "tampers" with God's Word?

You don't actually take a literal view of Daniel 9. However historicists do. You not only misinterpret it, you add to the scripture, and also misqote it.

Bro Steve,

I am glad you know God's intentions.

However God has made his plan clear. Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world. The OT prophecies all lead to the crucifiction. On the Emaeus Road, what did Jesus teach?

Bro Rick,

The Kingdom was never offered to ther Jews and when the Jews tried to make him king, he got away quickly. He told Pilate: "My Kingdom is not of this world."

[Steve Schwenke]

Invicta,
So what you are saying then is that God predestinated man to fall in the garden? Adam and Eve really had no choice in the matter?
How do we reconcile this with the fact that God is HOLY, and that God never tempts man with evil? If in fact you are correct, then ultimately, God becomes responsible for the temptation and the sin.

I don't buy that.
Adam had a choice. If in fact Adam had a choice, then there must have been a plan in place to allow for Adam's choice of GOOD (i.e. NOT eating the forbidden fruit.) To say otherwise is to say that God "didn't think about that one!"

God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of events does not preclude the matter. Just because God knew the choices Adam would make does not mean that He FORCED Adam to make them. As such, there had to have been a plan for the alternative.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of events does not preclude the matter. Just because God knew the choices Adam would make does not mean that He FORCED Adam to make them. As such, there had to have been a plan for the alternative.

I couldn't have said it better myself. For some reason Calvinists don't understand the logic. It isn't an acceptable option for them and their minds are closed to the possibility, even when it makes logical sense.

[John81]

So then what you are saying is that God INTENTIONALLY created Adam with the specific purpose in mind that Adam would fall? God purposefully made mankind, purposefully let them fall?
What were God's intentions for His creation anyway? This sin-riddled universe?
Not so.
God's intentions were that Adam and Eve would obey Him BY FAITH, and not eat of the forbidden fruit.
God's intentions were that Adam and Eve would have children, and then rule over the world (see Gen. 2).
But they didn't.
So "plan B" (as you call it) calls for death, destruction, sin, curse, etc., and then ultimately the death of Jesus Christ (and His resurrection) to make an atonement for sin.
Now, the end result is the New Heaven and New Earth, but there is a huge "gap" between Genesis 2 and Revelation 21 that is a direct result of Adam's sin. God did not FORCE Adam to sin. God allowed Adam to make a choice, and then God worked out His plan around Adam's choice.
So it is with Israel. God gave them a choice.
When you state that Jesus Christ spoke in parables to hide the truth from them, you are overlooking the nature of self-righteous mankind. Romans 1 details this for us. When a sinner willfully rejects God's message, God turns them over to their own lusts, and lets them have their own way. This is exactly what happened to Israel in the gospels. The elders, priests, Pharisees, and Saducees were not interested in hearing or believing anything Jesus Christ had to say. So AFTER they had received a clear straight message, and they WILLFULLY rejeceted it, THEN and ONLY THEN did Jesus Christ begin to speak in parables.

No, you are saying things I never stated.

The Bible is clear that God knew exactly what was going to happen before He ever created the world and had already prepared His perfect plan for dealing with it. God was not caught by surprise when Eve and then Adam sinned. God already had the plan of salvation prepared before the foundation of the world.

Scripture also tells us that creation and all that follows is for His glory.

[Steve Schwenke]

You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.

[John81]

You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.

Not at all. Adam had a choice to make and God knew before the foundation of the world what choice Adam would make.

[Steve Schwenke]

But having a choice means that Adam could have chosen differently. What then?
Foreknowledge is not predestination.
So, what was God's plan for Adam if Adam had chosen right?
What was God's plan if Israel had obeyed the Law?
What was God's plan if Saul had not disobeyed? (King Saul in the OT)
What was God's plan if Israel had repented at the preaching of Jeremiah?

God gives us free-will. Thus, the Lord knows what to do in either case. There is a "Plan A" - the plan where we do what is right and pleasing to Him. This is His perfect will. This is what God wants.
However, if we sin, then catastrophic results come. This is not God's will, but God will let us choose, and bear the blessings or consequences of our actions. Plan A - God's blessings. Plan B - God's chastisement.
It has always been that way, and will continue to be that way until Revelation 21.

[John81]

But having a choice means that Adam could have chosen differently. What then?
Foreknowledge is not predestination.
So, what was God's plan for Adam if Adam had chosen right?
What was God's plan if Israel had obeyed the Law?
What was God's plan if Saul had not disobeyed? (King Saul in the OT)
What was God's plan if Israel had repented at the preaching of Jeremiah?

God gives us free-will. Thus, the Lord knows what to do in either case. There is a "Plan A" - the plan where we do what is right and pleasing to Him. This is His perfect will. This is what God wants.
However, if we sin, then catastrophic results come. This is not God's will, but God will let us choose, and bear the blessings or consequences of our actions. Plan A - God's blessings. Plan B - God's chastisement.
It has always been that way, and will continue to be that way until Revelation 21.

Are you saying that God doesn't know what's going to happen tomorrow, that God doesn't know what both of us will be doing or saying at 8 a.m., Sunday, February 19, 2012?

One couldn't say God had foreknowledge of anything if His foreknowledge could be wrong! How could God ever be wrong? How can God not know what choice each and every person on the planet will make each and every micro-second?

God knew everything about the world and made His plan regarding the world before the foundation of the world. The fact God knew I would be making this post doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. The choice was mine yet God knew what choice I would make before I did, before I was even born.

[anime4christ]

God predestined to allow the fall. Adam was the only man who had an innocent neutral free will, the rest of us are born with a sinful and therefore not free nature. In Adam we all chose sin. The fall was an example of where man's free choice leads given the temptation and without God's intervention - sin. So God did predestine to allow the fall (He could have easily prevented it) but He did not make Adam do it. Adam did it by his own free will. It is because free will does not lead to God; only His grace does.

[Steve Schwenke]

Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

[Invicta]

You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.

I think that Martin Luther put it better than that. He said Adam was given free will and adam sinned and through Adam we have all sinned. Our free will is only to sin. You will find that, not the exact words, in his Bondage of the Will.

[John81]

Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

What I mentioned, has nothing to do with Calvinism or predestination and does not effect free will.

God knows the beginning from the end. God knew everything that would occur with His creation before He ever created it. God knew every choice every human would ever have and God knew what choice each would make each time even before the foundation of the world.

Knowing all this, God knew exactly what He planned to do with regards to salvation (and all things) from beginning to end, and didn't need nor does He now need any contingency plans.

[Invicta]

Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.

So Paul was teaching a "Christianised version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy" when he said we were predestined?

.

[anime4christ]

So Paul was teaching a "Christianised version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy" when he said we were predestined?

.

No, Paul was just horrible at articulation and he didn't mean what he said. Lol

[Steve Schwenke]

No you don't know what the word means....it has nothing to do with Calvin's pagan philosophy that he borrowed from Augustine...