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LindaR

The Gap (Daniel 11:33-35)

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You are missing the point here. You are saying that those who advance the idea of two alternative plans are wrong. That only leaves one conclusion - the conclusion that God did not make Adam capable of choosing RIGHT, but only choosing WRONG.


I think that Martin Luther put it better than that. He said Adam was given free will and adam sinned and through Adam we have all sinned. Our free will is only to sin. You will find that, not the exact words, in his Bondage of the Will.

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Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

What I mentioned, has nothing to do with Calvinism or predestination and does not effect free will.

God knows the beginning from the end. God knew everything that would occur with His creation before He ever created it. God knew every choice every human would ever have and God knew what choice each would make each time even before the foundation of the world.

Knowing all this, God knew exactly what He planned to do with regards to salvation (and all things) from beginning to end, and didn't need nor does He now need any contingency plans.

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pre·des·ti·nate (pr -d s t -n t ) tr.v. pre·des·ti·nat·ed, pre·des·ti·nat·ing, pre·des·ti·nates 1. Theology To predestine. 2. Archaic To destine or determine in advance; foreordain.

Pretty self-explanatory to me...

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From an actual witch's post on pagan theology:

The other tree is the Tree of Knowledge. This is associated with Satan and Death and is the tree that Adam and Eve ate from, causing them to be banished and marked. The secret to the Tree of Knowledge is the knowledge that you don’t have to give your soul to anyone. You can own it yourself. You have Free Will.

In Pagan religions, we can serve the Gods (or choose not to) while retaining full ownership and control of our free will and our souls. When I serve Lord Hermes, I am not giving up myself to Him. He is not choosing my actions for me and I don’t blindly do as He asks. I am still responsible for my actions, even those done in His service. (See Serving the Gods)

This is a fundamental difference between the Pagan religions and the Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic followers strive to give their will, their soul, to their God. The believe strongly that their will is never theirs and cannot ever be their own. They must give it to either one deity or another.

Pagans see it as a choice between giving their soul to a God (or number of Gods, though that would make life extremely difficult) or keep it for themselves. Most choose to keep it themselves. They choose the path of Free Will, not (any) God’s Will.

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Calvinism and Predestination are the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy.
Adam was not predestinated to fall. God's plan for Adam and Eve are revealed in Scripture:
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Notice that God's plan had nothing to do with them eating of the forbidden fruit. God's plan was to populate the planet with a sinless race of people who would worship, obey, and love Him. Adam failed. Not because he was predestinated to fail. Love demands a choice, so God allowed Adam to choose between God and Satan. Adam failed, and as a result, God's original plan and purpose were put aside for a future date (Rev. 21).
Yes, I agree that God knew what Adam's choice would be, but that does not negate the fact that God's original purpose and plan were far different from what actually transpired.
I know what God's plan for my life is, and I know where my choices have messed things up. I have had to take several detours because of my poor choices. I can't blame all that on God and this pagan fatalistic philosophy. I made bad choices, and as a result, God's plan for my life has been altered.
When we start saying that we don't have any freewill, then we accuse God for all the sin in the world. The dope addict was predestinated to be that way. The drunk was predestinated to be that way. The muslim terrorists were predestinated to send their kids in with bombs strapped on them for a suicide attack.
That is sheer nonsense. It is not God's plan. God's plan has been delayed. Satan has control of this world right now, and will continue to tighten his grasp until Revelation 19 occurs.

Predestination is taught in Scripture, but it is not taught as Augustine and Calvin taught it. Scriptural predestination is NOT fatalism...or as Bro. Steve pointed out "the CHristianized version of the pagan Fatalism philosophy."

God planned man’s salvation before the creation:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination doesn’t mean that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. Scripture states that God wants all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation; predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge and has more to do with what the Christian is predestined TO than WHO is predestined.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination assures eternal salvation.

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Pagan fatalism teaches that an impersonal unmovable force (fate) determines the course of life. Everything happens without a purpose and there's nothing we can do about it. Enjoy the ride if anything enjoyable comes your way. Otherwise you're out of luck.

Pagan free will teaches that we are gods and can choose to serve a lesser god or force or idea or something in order to get what we want. The purpose is to gratify self, whether in a hedonistic or pious or other way. The Christian version of this is that you can gain salvation by praying sincere enough and having a faith good enough to get into Heaven.

The Bible teaches that God is in control and can choose what to allow to happen and what to bring about. He is free to do as He pleases. Because He is characterized by love, He has an ultimate good purpose for everything He does and allows. Faith and repentance are gifts He gives to His children who are born of His Spirit. It is by His grace that I believe; it is not my doing. The purpose of my life is to gaze upon His beauty and to worship (enjoy) Him for who He is. Outward expressions of this include preaching the gospel in word and deed and many other things. Any other motive for doing anything is sin.

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It's funny how infidels after having for hundreds of years declared that man doesn't have free will, now say that Christians are the ones without free will. In reality it's sad, they don't know what to believe, they are lost, blind and cannot see. The Lord says they are proud, knowing-nothing and foolish.

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They are right on one thing: it is man's natural free choice to serve self over God. To them (a) God is just a tool to serve self. What is more sad is when some Christians treat God the same way. They are lost when they think they are not.

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IF all things are predestined exactly how they will take place, or even IF God's for knowledge is such that there is no room for free will that would change God's way of handling something, would someone please explain to me Isaiah 38 and 2 Kings 20?

2Ki 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
2Ki 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
2Ki 20:4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
2Ki 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
2Ki 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

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The thread has moved seriously :ot:
I have listened carefully to the OP & am amazed at the arguments put forward -arguments that are essentially anti-Scriptural & anti-Jewish, justifying 2,000 years of persecution, & display a pagan fatalism that no "calvinist" would recognise.

32
And such as do wickedly against the covena
nt
shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34
Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appoi
nt
ed.


As I understand it from intertestamental history, Daniel's prophecy is so accurate with regard to the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes & subsequently Herod, & the struggle of the Maccabees, that they have accused him of recording that history rather than prophesying it. Inserting 2,000 years of predestined persecution. Bear in mind the Jews have not got that KJV colon to reassure them that their 2,000 years of suffering is the will of God.

No. Up to the time of Jesus, the history of the nation is a cycle of obedient faith, departure from the faith, punishment for that disobedience, normally by invasion, and the call to repentance, & subsequent restoration. The intertestamental period saw a rise of a strict, Pharisaical legalism, & cooperation with the occupying powers, that left the faithful in the minority.

The Jewish leaders evidenced this by not following the Magi to Bethlehem, by refusing to acknowledge John as "Elijah" & so submit to his baptism, etc. They knew the events of Zecharias at the temple, & of the Messiah's birth at Bethlehem, yet insisted that Jesus was from Nazareth. (John 7, & the superscription.) Some of those who following Jesus were persecuted in his lifetime. (John 9)

During the Acts period, & particularly during the second half of the 70th week, many thousands of Jews repented & turned to their Messiah. By the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem many thousands of Jews there are which believe. In Acts we can see Jews being converted around the world, but sadly we can also see their rejection by their fellows, so that they become members of the Christian community, rather than a "Messianic Jewish" community. In that situation, they are disowned by the Jews, & marry within the Christian community, & so their "Jewishness" is lost within a generation.

Paul, in 2 Thes 2, writes that the prophesied destruction is delayed the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The obvious understanding of that - something Paul could tell the Thessalonians - is that the Christians would be taken from Jerusalem before the destruction. (See Mat. 24) We see the same in Rev. 7, where the believing Jews are sealed before the destruction.
Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.
....
9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, cl
ot
hed with white r
ob
es, and palms in their hands;
10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and u
nt
o the Lamb.


Daniel is not writing about 2,000+ years of Jewish persecution decreed by God, but encouraging the Jews to believe & continue faithful through persecution. When Messiah comes, the wise do understand, & believe in Jesus as Lord, God & Saviour. Persecution comes to all Christians, regardless of ethnicity, because we now stand against a corrupt world.

We do not need to interpret a colon in Scripture, but to read the words. Paul says it so clearly:
3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each
ot
her aboundeth;

4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgme
nt
of God, that ye may be cou
nt
ed worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know n
ot
God, and that
ob
ey n
ot
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10
When he shall come to be glorified in his sai
nt
s, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Edited by Covenanter

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For the Jews, as for all the nations, these days are Gospel days. The Gospel preached at & after Pentecost still rings true. Free forgiveness & full salvation. The self-curse of the Jews is cancelled by the Gospel:

Then answered all the people, and said,
His blood be on us, and on our children.


Repe
nt
, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39
For
the promise is u
nt
o you, and to your children
, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


Note also: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up u
nt
o you of your brethren, like u
nt
o me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say u
nt
o you.

23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will n
ot
hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covena
nt
which God made with our fathers, saying u
nt
o Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26
U
nt
o you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, se
nt
him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


It is a dreadful lie to negate the glorious Gospel promises by a colon. Today's Gospel is for the Jews, as well as every nation.

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Because very strange teachings come from inserting gaps where the Bible doesn't. Peter Ruckman is dispensational as well. I just don't understand how people get the boldness to tamper with God's word like this.


Don't acuse me of tampering with God's word when you pack around a corrupt version.

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This discussion and previous discussions is exactly what is wrong with the church these days. No one can agree on anything and pride is a wall that makes people unteachable and unapproachable. I personally don't like Dr Ruckman (He has a doctorate - more than what most of us have I would say, so at least respect that) And although I disagree with a lot of what he says in a personal capacity, there are few if any that have done more for the fight for the KJV AV 1611. His teaching, though abrasive at times, could teach a lot of us a thing or two. Too many of us KJV onliests who claim to stand on the "fundamentals" of the faith act like modern seeker friendly churches where anything goes.

Has anyone ever noticed that the verses pertaining to predestination in Romans and Ephesians are in Books written by Paul to the CHURCH - ie BELIEVERS who were/are IN Christ already and that it does not represent the salvation, but rather blessings/things/gifts if you will that the believer receives once IN Christ?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

How does a thread concerning the Book of Daniel end up as a discussion concerning paganism and witchcraft?

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@Ian: Amen.

@Rick: I've said many times that the King James is the best translation I have come across, but it is not perfect, and that is why I use other versions and a little Greek as a supplement. I don't know who "packs around" any corrupt version. I am fully aware of the problems with many versions, but I do not practice "do not touch" rules. Paul said not to. I always quote the King James on this board anyway so I don't get what's the problem.

@2Tim215: We were accused of being pagan fatalists first because we rejected plan B theology. I didn't even mention Calvinism in this thread until this post. I then brought up the fact that pagans are usually far more about free will than fatalism. Fatalism is usually more on the deistic or atheistic side than polytheistic paganism.

Back to the topic. Since when did Bible teaching become about studying what isn't written rather than what is? It's sad and I believe shows distrust for God. God gave us His word for us to believe and know He is true and we can trust Him. Reading between the lines is something you do when you don't trust a person. You try to find the hidden meaning of his words. How can we treat God that way?

Edited by anime4christ

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There is already a clear distinction between the church and Israel in Scripture without having to create several "dispensations" (whether 7, 9 or another number of them, which dispensationalists can't even agree upon).

Also, considering the original texts of Scripture were without punctuation, we know the "gap creating" colon was placed there by man in his attempt to make the reading of the Word easier not because divine inspiration already had it there.

Again, why are first 69 "weeks" interpreted as being literal years while the 70th week is given special interpretation so that it's not literally the 70the week?

As well, you do realize there are those who hold to basically the same end times views (pre-mil rapture, tribulation, etc.) that reject dispensationalism, right? Holding to one of the dispensational theories isn't even required in order to come to the end times conclusion you do.


I believe the 70th week is very literal. John81 don't you believe in a literal 70 week?

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@Rick: I've said many times that the King James is the best translation I have come across, but it is not perfect, and that is why I use other versions and a little Greek as a supplement. I don't know who "packs around" any corrupt version. I am fully aware of the problems with many versions, but I do not practice "do not touch" rules. Paul said not to. I always quote the King James on this board anyway so I don't get what's the problem.

There is a big difference between USING a KJV, and actually believing that every word in the KJV is actually God's words perfectly inspired and preserved for us today.


@2Tim215: We were accused of being pagan fatalists first because we rejected plan B theology. I didn't even mention Calvinism in this thread until this post. I then brought up the fact that pagans are usually far more about free will than fatalism. Fatalism is usually more on the deistic or atheistic side than polytheistic paganism.

Back to the topic. Since when did Bible teaching become about studying what isn't written rather than what is? It's sad and I believe shows distrust for God. God gave us His word for us to believe and know He is true and we can trust Him. Reading between the lines is something you do when you don't trust a person. You try to find the hidden meaning of his words. How can we treat God that way?

You can say that with a straight face???? "hidden meaning of his words???"
Ian has pronounced that the "eagle" in Matthew 24 is a reference to Rome, but has yet to give us one Scripture to prove it!!! He has done the same thing on several different topics on these threads, yet somehow you point the finger at US????
Please!

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There is a big difference between USING a KJV, and actually believing that every word in the KJV is actually God's words perfectly inspired and preserved for us today.


Growing up multilingual and reading the Bible in several languages fluently and in several others not fluently just doesn't let me believe there is one perfect version. Because every version I read had some parts closer to the manuscripts they were translated from (the first Bibles I ever read were all TR based) and made more sense than the others. I wonder if I chose to grow up in a Slavic family in America by my own free will. It kind of ruined it for me on the KJVO issue. I'm still KJVP though. So far nobody has explained to me why the KJV is superior to other TR-based translations in other languages even in the verses that make more sense in those translations than the KJV. I'd be happy to hear why.



You can say that with a straight face???? "hidden meaning of his words???"
Ian has pronounced that the "eagle" in Matthew 24 is a reference to Rome, but has yet to give us one Scripture to prove it!!! He has done the same thing on several different topics on these threads, yet somehow you point the finger at US????
Please!


I don't know everything about eschatology, so I don't have much of an opinion on the eagles at this point. I am something of a partial-preterist/historicist blend, but I don't know what my label is supposed to be exactly. I don't really care for labels. I want to know what the Bible teaches and I don't care what others call it. Ian believes the eagles are Romans. I don't know. All I know is that I don't see any gaps in God's word. I study what is written in the Bible, not what is in between punctuation marks. Dispensationalism is all about reading between the lines. I'm talking in general; you are accusing me of specific things which I don't even know about yet.

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I believe the 70th week is very literal. John81 don't you believe in a literal 70 week?

If the 70the week were taken literally then it would follow immediately after the 69th week just like each week previously followed immediately after the other. To say there is a "gap" between the 69th and 70th weeks means in effect there are many other "week" between the 69th and 70th that are not counted. That's not a literal view.

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There is a big difference between USING a KJV, and actually believing that every word in the KJV is actually God's words perfectly inspired and preserved for us today.



You can say that with a straight face???? "hidden meaning of his words???"
Ian has pronounced that the "eagle" in Matthew 24 is a reference to Rome, but has yet to give us one Scripture to prove it!!! He has done the same thing on several different topics on these threads, yet somehow you point the finger at US????
Please!

I have started an "eagle" thread to avoid you making ad homine arguments regardless of what I write.

Perhaps you missed my 2 posts on page 2, or perhaps you use my Roman eagles as a reason to disregard all my posts, which always highlight Scripture.
Be careful, or you might drive John into the preterist camp :coffee:

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Daniel's 70 weeks all come down to Israel.

Who is Israel in the passage? Is it the Israel of the Old Testament, the Israel that rejected Christ? Or is some other kind of Israel? Is it what we all agree to be the church?

The reason why I ask these things is because they tie in directly to what is supposed to happen once the 70 weeks are complete:

Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

So the critical question is, have these things happened yet? If Israel is the church, then you can make the case that they have. See the part about "seal up the vision and prophecy"? That would indicate Revelation. If Revelation has been fulfilled, then so too has Daniel 9:24 and all seventy of the weeks. Has everlasting righteousness come to the people of God? Well, if we're talking about the church, then yes, that everlasting righteousness has come and it is found in Jesus Christ.

Now if Israel in the passage is an ethnic and national people, then this has not been fulfilled. The holy city is Jerusalem, and it doesn't even belong to the Jews right now (at least not completely), and God certainly doesn't view Jerusalem as a holy city as He has in the past. End of sins for the Jews? Hardly fulfilled. Everlasting righteousness? Only for the ones that have accepted Jesus Christ, but certainly not for the whole nation, which is what this would have to apply to if it's talking about national Israel. Seal up the vision and prophecy? Only if God was done with the Jews nationally in 70 A.D.

The way to tell if the seventy weeks have been fulfilled is to determine if what was supposed to follows the seventy weeks have happened yet.

So in the end, it always comes back to an old man in the desert looking up at the night stars and what God promised him.

Edited by Rick Schworer

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Daniel's 70 weeks all come down to Israel.

Who is Israel in the passage? Is it the Israel of the Old Testament, the Israel that rejected Christ? Or is some other kind of Israel? Is it what we all agree to be the church?

The reason why I ask these things is because they tie in directly to what is supposed to happen once the 70 weeks are complete:

Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

So the critical question is, have these things happened yet? If Israel is the church, then you can make the case that they have. See the part about "seal up the vision and prophecy"? That would indicate Revelation. If Revelation has been fulfilled, then so too has Daniel 9:24 and all seventy of the weeks. Has everlasting righteousness come to the people of God? Well, if we're talking about the church, then yes, that everlasting righteousness has come and it is found in Jesus Christ.

Now if Israel in the passage is an ethnic and national people, then this has not been fulfilled. The holy city is Jerusalem, and it doesn't even belong to the Jews right now (at least not completely), and God certainly doesn't view Jerusalem as a holy city as He has in the past. End of sins for the Jews? Hardly fulfilled. Everlasting righteousness? Only for the ones that have accepted Jesus Christ, but certainly not for the whole nation, which is what this would have to apply to if it's talking about national Israel. Seal up the vision and prophecy? Only if God was done with the Jews nationally in 70 A.D.

The way to tell if the seventy weeks have been fulfilled is to determine if what was supposed to follows the seventy weeks have happened yet.

So in the end, it always comes back to an old man in the desert looking up at the night stars and what God promised him.

Huh? You lost me...

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