Psalms in Christian worship

[Covenanter]

Should Christians sing the Psalms, claiming the promises to believing Israel? Or should we sing them with reservation, because the promises are not for us - the church?


From another thread -

I love the Psalms, indeed. Where you refer to the Psalms as 'the inspired hymn book for the church', I think as a dispensationalist I would use the word 'Israel' rather than the church, which I don't see in the Old Testament. But, yes, the Psalms offer an inexhaustible treasure of praise and sentiment.

I was surprised that Farouk should bring dispensationalism into the thread. The Psalms are freely quoted in the epistles written to the churches. We are commanded to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Col. 3:¹⁵And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
¹⁶Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
¹⁷And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

2 Cor. 1:¹⁸But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
¹⁹For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
²⁰For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Rom. 15:⁸Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
⁹And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. (Ps 18:9)
¹⁰And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (Deu. 32:43)
¹¹And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (Psa. 117:1)
¹²And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. (Isa. 11:10)

Psa 18:⁴⁹Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.

Deu. 32:⁴³Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Psa. 117:¹O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people.

Isa. 11:¹⁰And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Should Christians sing the Psalms, claiming the promises to believing Israel? Or should we sing them with reservation, because the promises are not for us - the church? Edited August 9, 2011 by Covenanter

[farouk]

Should Christians sing the Psalms, claiming the promises to believing Israel? Or should we sing them with reservation, because the promises are not for us - the church?


From another thread -

I was surprised that Farouk should bring dispensationalism into the thread. The Psalms are freely quoted in the epistles written to the churches. We are commanded to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Col. 3:¹⁵And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
¹⁶Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
¹⁷And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

2 Cor. 1:¹⁸But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
¹⁹For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
²⁰For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Rom. 15:⁸Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
⁹And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. (Ps 18:9)
¹⁰And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (Deu. 32:43)
¹¹And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (Psa. 117:1)
¹²And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. (Isa. 11:10)

Psa 18:⁴⁹Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.

Deu. 32:⁴³Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Psa. 117:¹O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people.

Isa. 11:¹⁰And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Should Christians sing the Psalms, claiming the promises to believing Israel? Or should we sing them with reservation, because the promises are not for us - the church?

C:

Yes, the Psalms may be read with immense benefit for — at some level — inexhaustible instruction. The Messianic Psalms are especially full of Christ, witnessing to the unity of Scripture.

But you won't find the church in them.

Revelation was not complete when David and others wrote them; the church had not then been founded; it was before Pentecost.

For example, the great doxology in 1 Timothy 3.16 (which, incidentally, was apparently sung at first in the early church) contains revelation not fully given when the Psalms were penned.

In a site such as this, you will find that many baptists and others will hold to the dispensational distinctives of the church and Israel.

[Covenanter]

:Farouk:
Yes, the Psalms may be read with immense benefit for — at some level — inexhaustible instruction. The Messianic Psalms are especially full of Christ, witnessing to the unity of Scripture.
Read, but not sung???

But you won't find the church in them.
What do you understand by "the church?" I understand it as the body of Jew & Gentile believers in Christ. In this "dispensation" there is no difference. As the Psalms are "especially full of Christ," & prophecy concerning him, & as Stephen saw "the church in the wilderness" why should we not see "the church" in the Psalms?

Revelation was not complete when David and others wrote them; the church had not then been founded; it was before Pentecost.
I won't argue with that, though, of course, God's eternal redemption plan was being worked out in time.

For example, the great doxology in 1 Timothy 3.16 (which, incidentally, was apparently sung at first in the early church) contains revelation not fully given when the Psalms were penned.
I have heard the suggestion that that is part of an early Christian hymn. We can look at that separately.

In a site such as this, you will find that many baptists and others will hold to the dispensational distinctives of the church and Israel.
I am fully aware of that! Obviously "Israel" belongs to the OC "dispensation" & "the church" to the new covenant dispensation in which all the redeemed people of God are one in Christ, regardless of ethnicity.

Nevertheless, Christians are commanded to sing Psalms, hymns & spiritual songs. Should we sing them as if we too are Israel in God's purposes, or sing them knowing they are not for us as Gentile believers?

Should we hesitate when we sing Psalm 100:
All people that on earth do dwell; sing to the LORD with cheerful voice?
¹Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.
²Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
³Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Are Gentile Christians his people? Do we agree with Paul when he takes up Lev. 26 & applies it to Gentiles:
¹¹And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
¹²And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
2 Cor. 6:¹⁶And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[farouk]

C;

Put it like this: you know that many baptists and others, especially in North America, don't tend to regard Israel as part of the church, or the church as an institutional extension of Israel. Or however I might state it, and re-state it. We are now going round in circles, I think. Obviously you're not a dispensationalist. I happen to be. We'd better leave it there. You may not want to leave it there. But it's hard to deny what an overwhelming proportion of baptist believers and others, especially in North American, actually believe about the distinction between Israel and the church.

And, oh, I don't object to singing Psalms, although, remember, the revelational content won't necessarily fully reflect all the truth in the New Testament, because the New Testament hadn't been penned when David and others wrote the Psalms.

[HappyChristian]

There are a number of verses in Psalms whose principles are carried into the NT for believers...I love to teach my SS class songs from scripture, and Psalms has many about God's Word that are good to learn (Thy Word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee most certainly applies to us: we learn God's Word and allow it to become a part of us and God will use it to help us be obedient to Him).

"Oh, how love I thy law, it is my meditation all the day...thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path...how sweet are thy words unto my taste, yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth..." All verses that directly apply to me, a Gentile Christian. Praise the Lord that I can enjoy and profit from the entire Bible!!

"The New is in the Old concealed...the Old is in the New revealed."

[farouk]

There are a number of verses in Psalms whose principles are carried into the NT for believers...I love to teach my SS class songs from scripture, and Psalms has many about God's Word that are good to learn (Thy Word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee most certainly applies to us: we learn God's Word and allow it to become a part of us and God will use it to help us be obedient to Him).

"Oh, how love I thy law, it is my meditation all the day...thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path...how sweet are thy words unto my taste, yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth..." All verses that directly apply to me, a Gentile Christian. Praise the Lord that I can enjoy and profit from the entire Bible!!

"The New is in the Old concealed...the Old is in the New revealed."

HappyChristian:

Excellent post, yes, indeed.

[Nathaniel]

Are we not told to sing the psalms?

(Eph 5:19) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


(Col 3:16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I believe the psalms should become new through the Spirit.

(Ps 98:1) A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
(Ps 98:2) The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
(Ps 98:3) He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
(Ps 98:4) Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
(Ps 98:5) Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
(Ps 98:6) With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
(Ps 98:7) Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(Ps 98:8) Let the floods clap [their] hands: let the hills be joyful together
(Ps 98:9) Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.


(Rom 9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
(Rom 9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
(Rom 9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
(Rom 9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
(Rom 9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


If I have no part in the promises then woe is me!

(Eph 2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(Eph 2:14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
(Eph 2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
(Eph 2:16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(Eph 2:17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(Eph 2:18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(Eph 2:19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(Rom 9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


I hope you will see in Christ we are made part of the commonwealth of Israel, part of the covenants of promise, now having hope, and now have God in this world?



(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:29) And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


(John 8:31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
(John 8:32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(John 8:33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
(John 8:34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(John 8:35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
(John 8:36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8:37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
(John 8:38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
(John 8:39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
(John 8:40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
(John 8:41) Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
(John 8:42) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
(John 8:43) Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
(John 8:44) Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(John 8:45) And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
(John 8:46) Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
(John 8:47) He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.


(Rev 2:9) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [i know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.



You will say unto me then;

(Rom 11:1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.


If God has cast away his people then how could Paul be saved? Then he continues;

(Rom 11:2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
(Rom 11:3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
(Rom 11:4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
(Rom 11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:6) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


As we see in Romans 8

(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



(Rom 11:7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(Rom 11:8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(Rom 11:9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
(Rom 11:10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
(Rom 11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(Rom 11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
(Rom 11:14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom 11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
(Rom 11:16) For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
(Rom 11:17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Rom 11:18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(Rom 11:19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
(Rom 11:20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Rom 11:21) For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
(Rom 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(Rom 11:23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
(Rom 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(Rom 11:28) As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Rom 11:29) For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
(Rom 11:30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(Rom 11:31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(Rom 11:32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Rom 11:33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
(Rom 11:34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(Rom 11:35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.


Whether there will be a gathering of the Jews (Of the flesh) or not at the fulness of the Gentiles; or if rather it means that all the Israel of God will be saved as in;

Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ga 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I have not come to a conclusion however one thing is for sure if there is they will be graffed into the promises of the Israel of God which we enter in by Christ alone.


We are one body in Christ;

(Matt 1:1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

(Rom 12:5) So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.


Are we not then partakers of the promises of Israel in Christ?


Here are two of my favorite Psalms to sing;

https://www.youtube....h?v=GGzuUfQD-G4

https://www.youtube....h?v=DIdaP8nIM74

Edited August 9, 2011 by Nathaniel

[Invicta]

C;

Put it like this: you know that many baptists and others, especially in North America, don't tend to regard Israel as part of the church, or the church as an institutional extension of Israel. Or however I might state it, and re-state it. We are now going round in circles, I think. Obviously you're not a dispensationalist. I happen to be. We'd better leave it there. You may not want to leave it there. But it's hard to deny what an overwhelming proportion of baptist believers and others, especially in North American, actually believe about the distinction between Israel and the church.

And, oh, I don't object to singing Psalms, although, remember, the revelational content won't necessarily fully reflect all the truth in the New Testament, because the New Testament hadn't been penned when David and others wrote the Psalms.

As I have said before, dispensationalism is a Plymouth Brethren teaching, eventually absorbed by other denominations. Here, Brethren, Liberal Baptists, Charismatics, Pentecostals, and all sorts of ecumenists would be dispentionalists. Grace B aptists would almost all not be dispies.

In our church we have some dispentionalists.

[farouk]

As I have said before, dispensationalism is a Plymouth Brethren teaching, eventually absorbed by other denominations. Here, Brethren, Liberal Baptists, Charismatics, Pentecostals, and all sorts of ecumenists would be dispentionalists. Grace B aptists would almost all not be dispies.

In our church we have some dispentionalists.

I:

What you call dispies is actually the outlook of huge numbers of baptists and others in North America. Basically the assumption is that there is a distinction between the Old and New Testaments, and between Israel and the church.

Blessings.

[Covenanter]

Thank you, Nathaniel, those Scriptures speak volumes.

C;

Put it like this: you know that many baptists and others, especially in North America, don't tend to regard Israel as part of the church, or the church as an institutional extension of Israel. Or however I might state it, and re-state it. We are now going round in circles, I think. Obviously you're not a dispensationalist. I happen to be. We'd better leave it there. You may not want to leave it there. But it's hard to deny what an overwhelming proportion of baptist believers and others, especially in North American, actually believe about the distinction between Israel and the church.

And, oh, I don't object to singing Psalms, although, remember, the revelational content won't necessarily fully reflect all the truth in the New Testament, because the New Testament hadn't been penned when David and others wrote the Psalms.

I don't see this as a dispensational issue.

When do you consider the distinction between Israel & the church arose? Obviously not in the preaching of Peter in Acts. Thousands of Israel believed & formed the church. When Gentiles were converted, they were added to the number without circumcision, & did not separate.

Only unbelieving Israelis who rejected their Messiah saw a distinction, but should we take our teaching from unbelievers?

There is a danger in taking a word like "church" (ekklesia) & making it a technical term. It is simply an assembly or congregation, specifically (but not always in Scripture) of believers. The LXX uses it of gatherings of Israel, so the term would have been familiar from that translation of the OT. (e.g. 2 CHr 6:12 ... ἐκκλησίας Ισραηλ ...

By my understanding the Apostolic preaching was a proclamation that God's Messianic promises were fulfilled in Jesus, by his death & resurrection. Those who rejected Jesus & the Apostolic Gospel were themselves rejected by God & would be destroyed.
Acts 3:²²For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
²³And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
²⁴Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
²⁵Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
²⁶Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

When Peter wrote his first letter, he made it clear that the specific promises to Israel were for the Gentile believers also:

Ex. 19:⁵Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
⁶And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet. 2:⁹But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
¹⁰Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Please don't try to tell that Peter was writing to the dispersion Jews - verse 10 would not apply to them. Paul uses the same verse in Hosea :Rom. 9:²⁴Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
²⁵As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

The fact that "Israel" exists apart from the church of believers is not an issue. The church of believers, comprising Jew & Gentile as one people of God in Christ, is the true continuation of Israel. Peter wasn't writing to correct Paul's letter - was confirming it.

Gal. 3:²⁶For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
²⁷For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
²⁸There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
²⁹And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Edited August 11, 2011 by Covenanter

[farouk]

Thank you, Nathaniel, those Scriptures speak volumes.


I don't see this as a dispensational issue.

When do you consider the distinction between Israel & the church arose? Obviously not in the preaching of Peter in Acts. Thousands of Israel believed & formed the church. When Gentiles were converted, they were added to the number without circumcision, & did not separate.

Only unbelieving Israelis who rejected their Messiah saw a distinction, but should we take our teaching from unbelievers?

There is a danger in taking a word like "church" (ekklesia) & making it a technical term. It is simply an assembly or congregation, specifically (but not always in Scripture) of believers. The LXX uses it of gatherings of Israel, so the term would have been familiar from that translation of the OT. (e.g. 2 CHr 6:12 ... ἐκκλησίας Ισραηλ ...

By my understanding the Apostolic preaching was a proclamation that God's Messianic promises were fulfilled in Jesus, by his death & resurrection. Those who rejected Jesus & the Apostolic Gospel were themselves rejected by God & would be destroyed.
Acts 3:²²For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
²³And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
²⁴Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
²⁵Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
²⁶Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

When Peter wrote his first letter, he made it clear that the specific promises to Israel were for the Gentile believers also:

Ex. 19:⁵Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
⁶And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet. 2:⁹But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
¹⁰Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Please don't try to tell that Peter was writing to the dispersion Jews - verse 10 would not apply to them. Paul uses the same verse in Hosea :Rom. 9:²⁴Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
²⁵As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

The fact that "Israel" exists apart from the church of believers is not an issue. The church of believers, comprising Jew & Gentile as one people of God in Christ, is the true continuation of Israel. Peter wasn't writing to correct Paul's letter - was confirming it.

Gal. 3:²⁶For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
²⁷For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
²⁸There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
²⁹And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

C;

This proves my point.

Loud and clear, in your words that I have highlighted, you take a position which denies the distinction between Israel and the church, even though the very book of Acts which you cite presents Pentecost as the beginning of the church, when the Holy Spirit came down and indwelt the church, which was thus responsible directly to the Lord Jesus, and not via the religious institution of Israel.

From the start I sensed an agenda on your part that huge numbers of Bible believing baptists and others in North America do not accept. In a previous post, I suggested that we acknowledge that our understanding is different, and leave it there. You've not taken my friendly advice.

Indeed, you're now saying that dispensational distinctions between Israel and the church are motivated by unbelief. (See your own words, highlighted above.) Whereas Paul himself points out the distinctions (see, for example: 1 Corinthians 10.32). As for Peter in 1 Peter 2.9, the 'royal priesthood' has nothing to do with any supposed institutional continuation of the Old Testament priesthood.

In short, you can't expect to come to a dispensational site such as this with such denials, and expect not to be challenged.

[Covenanter]

Farouk:
This proves my point.

Loud and clear, in your words that I have highlighted, you take a position which denies the distinction between Israel and the church, even though the very book of Acts which you cite presents Pentecost as the beginning of the church, when the Holy Spirit came down and indwelt the church, which was thus responsible directly to the Lord Jesus, and not via the religious institution of Israel.

I'm trying to follow your logic. With most people here I can understand, even when I don't agree, but with you I can't. The prophets looking forward, & the Apostles saw Jesus by his death & resurrection & ascension to be the focus of revelation. The sacrifices & priestly worship were FINISHED at the cross. There was no suggestion of a discontinuity in the purposes of God. Many thousands of Israel believed & formed the church, without ceasing to be Israel. The Apostles made it clear that believers in Jesus inherited all the promises to Israel.

From the start I sensed an agenda on your part that huge numbers of Bible believing baptists and others in North America do not accept. In a previous post, I suggested that we acknowledge that our understanding is different, and leave it there. You've not taken my friendly advice.

I have been contributing to this forum for several years. I'm here for fellowship, not with a particular "agenda" though I was invited onto the forum by one who knew my position, to contribute to the 70 weeks thread.

Our understanding is different, but you are the one who challenges me when I was totally unaware that my post would be controversial, as on the "today's hymns" thread.

Indeed, you're now saying that dispensational distinctions between Israel and the church are motivated by unbelief. (See your own words, highlighted above.) Whereas Paul himself points out the distinctions (see, for example: 1 Corinthians 10.32). As for Peter in 1 Peter 2.9, the 'royal priesthood' has nothing to do with any supposed institutional continuation of the Old Testament priesthood.

I suggest you examine the Scriptures to substantiate your arguments. Paul in Romans 11 makes it clear that unbelief is the significant difference - but "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: refers to the existing state, not dispensational differences. Jews & Gentiles are not members of the church in that context, but are worthy of respect. I fully agree that there was no "institutional continuation of the Old Testament priesthood." Except to the extent that sacrificial worship continued until the destruction. The New Covenant replaced the old as prophesied by Jeremiah.

In short, you can't expect to come to a dispensational site such as this with such denials, and expect not to be challenged.

Is this a dispensational site? No-one has referred me to the a doctrinal basis that I am violating. I don't mind being challenged, but please challenge me from Scripture & show me where I am in error.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Covenanter

[farouk]

C:

Well, if, despite 1 Corinthians 10.32, you think that people can be Israel and the church at the same time, I don't agree.

Scofield is helpful here.

You ask me to be Scriptural in showing you; but you don't accept that Paul here in 1 Cor. 10 is speaking about distinct groups of people.

You refer to Romans 11, when Romans 9, 10, & 11 clearly show that the church and Israel are different.

[Covenanter]

C: Well, if, despite 1 Corinthians 10.32, you think that people can be Israel and the church at the same time, I don't agree.
If you read the context, you will see that Paul is concerned with food regulations. Meat sacrificed to idols - a helpful Gentile advises the fact - so Paul says, "Don't eat it, you risk offend the other's conscience." The same principle applies when Jews (& other faiths) are being entertained. We do not give offence. Members of the church can also have scruples. I do not buy halal meat, but I don't ask, & I would eat it if offered by Muslim friends. "Offence" is the key principle. You are rending the context by trying to establish dispensational distinctives from that verse.Although simply Jews, Gentiles & the church of God are mentioned in the verse, there is no need to make them mutually exclusive groups. There were plenty of Jew & Gentile Christians, & everyone in the church of God was once Jew or Gentile. Most of us come into the church with pre-existing scruples. Why should a Hindu convert start eating beef, or a Muslim eat pork? Don't try telling them it's OK - you're Christians now - you can eat anything.

Scofield is helpful here. Scofield on line doesn't have a comment on the passage.


You ask me to be Scriptural in showing you; but you don't accept that Paul here in 1 Cor. 10 is speaking about distinct groups of people.
You seem to find it difficult to go beyond your own thinking. Please read the Scriptures in context.


You refer to Romans 11, when Romans 9, 10, & 11 clearly show that the church and Israel are different.

What you need to show is not that "the church & Israel are different" but that there is an absolute discontinuity between trew Israelites before Pentecost, & true Israelite believers after Pentecost. i.e. That believing Jews/Israelites were no longer Israel, but were the church instead - a completely new entity.

Israel after the flesh - physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac & Israel - were/are in principle the people of God, so why did they reject their Messiah? Paul shows the necessity of faith in Jesus Christ. He shows that those of Israel who reject Christ stumble, whereas whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Acts records that many thousands of Jews became the believers in Christ, forming the church. Ekklesia becomes the term for the gatherings of believers, & has become a term fo r all believers. We are grafted into Israel, by faith in Christ.

The sad truth is that those Jews persisting in rejecting their Messiah were declared "uncircumcised" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. Jesus through John denounces them as a "synagogue of Satan."
Rev. 2:⁹I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.