Two Kingdoms?

[Wilchbla]

Covenator- "Your mistake is to see the day of the LORD in a technical sense as if it were always the day of judgment yet to come. It is always the day when the LORD acts according to his warnings. Certainly it is future, but there have been many days in Scripture of the day of the LORD coming in judgment."

Yeah, and they were all a prefigurement of THE DAY OF THE LORD to come.

[dantheman2]

This one has Him sitting down and judging the nations "when the Son of man shall come." That hasn't happened yet.

Matthew 25:31-33, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Let us not forget that it is not always speaking of the same thing when it speaks of "judging." There are judgements in time and there is of course the judgement at the end of time when He returns to claim His saints. At that time those who are saved will meet Him in the air and those who are not will be condemned to an enternity in Hell.

[Brother Rick]

Covenanter, I will concede that you may have a point on some of those passages. At the same time, I don't want to go into every one of them, but you're failing to see the dual application in Old Testament prophecy. A clear example of this is the King of Tyre in Ez. 28. He was a man that God addressed, but God also spoke to Satan at the same time in the same passage. Further evidence of this is that God says in Is. 13 that the land of Babylon will never be inhabited again - ever, and yet it's filled with Iraqis today, so the Old Testament passage isn't dealing entirely with Old Testament Babylon.

We could debate that all day (not interested) but without a doubt Joel 2 is clearly talking about the same events in Matthew 24, and it's even made reference to by Peter in Acts 2. No way on Earth that chapter is talking about locusts, it's talking about the future Day of the Lord, and here God says it's "nigh at hand," 500-600 years before Christ was even born.

Joel 2:1-2, 30-32, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2) A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
30)And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

Don't forget Haggai 2:6-7, 500 years before Christ was born:

Haggai 2:6-7, "Haggai 2:6-7, "For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7) And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts."

Edited April 20, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Rick:

We could debate that all day (not interested) but without a doubt Joel 2 is clearly talking about the same events in Matthew 24, and it's even made reference to by Peter in Acts 2. No way on Earth that chapter is talking about locusts, it's talking about the future Day of the Lord, and here God says it's "nigh at hand," 500-600 years before Christ was even born.

If you start reading Joel from the beginning, you will see locusts are the invading army. They were one of the curses of disobedience:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

Pentecost is another day of the LORD - a day of salvation, not the one Joel was distressed about. And, of course, the sun turned to darkness at Calvary.

Haggai's little while agrees with your argument, but one OT reference cannot negate the clear time texts of Revelation.

[Covenanter]

The sun was turned to darkness at Calvary, before the day of Pentecost.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
.....
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Covenanter]

So you think the destruction of Jerusalem was "to comfort all that mourn", "to give unto them beauty for ashes", gave "the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness"? Doesn't seem very likely.

Jesus' whole ministry was to do just that, & will be fully realised in glory in the NH&NE. As believers we have begun to experience those blessings.

I doubt even believing Jews that escaped destruction were exactly happy about the situation. Not to mention that interpretation meshes poorly with the verses right after the ones in question. The rest of the chapter is quite evidently dealing with the restoration of the Jewish people, not their destruction.

Believers do suffer tribulation in this Gospel age, & will enjoy the perfect restoration in glory.

[dantheman2]

Covenanter, I will concede that you may have a point on some of those passages. At the same time, I don't want to go into every one of them, but you're failing to see the dual application in Old Testament prophecy. A clear example of this is the King of Tyre in Ez. 28. He was a man that God addressed, but God also spoke to Satan at the same time in the same passage. Further evidence of this is that God says in Is. 13 that the land of Babylon will never be inhabited again - ever, and yet it's filled with Iraqis today, so the Old Testament passage isn't dealing entirely with Old Testament Babylon.

We could debate that all day (not interested) but without a doubt Joel 2 is clearly talking about the same events in Matthew 24, and it's even made reference to by Peter in Acts 2. No way on Earth that chapter is talking about locusts, it's talking about the future Day of the Lord, and here God says it's "nigh at hand," 500-600 years before Christ was even born.

Joel 2:1-2, 30-32, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2) A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
30)And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

Don't forget Haggai 2:6-7, 500 years before Christ was born:

Haggai 2:6-7, "Haggai 2:6-7, "For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7) And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts."

Hey Rick, didn't Peter say that the events of Joel 2 is what was happening at that point?

[Invicta]

Hey Rick, didn't Peter say that the events of Joel 2 is what was happening at that point?

And didn't the desire of all nations, come?

[Wilchbla]

Peter was just being poetic. Either that or everybody just forget to mention the greatest natural phenomenon in history taking place.

[Wilchbla]

And didn't the desire of all nations, come?

Actually, he just lefted.

[dantheman2]

Peter was just being poetic. Either that or everybody just forget to mention the greatest natural phenomenon in history taking place.

And what would that be?

By the way, are you saying that when Peter said, "But this is that which was poken by the prophet Joel;....." (Acts 2:16ff), he really didn't mean it; he was just being "poetic?"

[anime4christ]

BTW, as for the signs in the heavens, check out this presentation: http://www.bethlehemstar.net/ Here it is on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCLmRB-OpGE I am also a partial preterist and I believe that Joel 2 has been fulfilled as Peter said in Acts. He wasn't just being "poetic". That has to be the worst interpretation of the Bible I've ever seen.

[Wilchbla]

And what would that be?

By the way, are you saying that when Peter said, "But this is that which was poken by the prophet Joel;....." (Acts 2:16ff), he really didn't mean it; he was just being "poetic?"

I'm being facetious to make a point. Not all of Joel was fulfilled at that time. The sun and moon literally didn't change and the earth didn't shake at the presence of the Lord (Haggai 2:6,7). If someone was to claim that it did happen then he would have to spiritualize the whole passage and say Peter was just being poetic about the celetial bodies. And if it did happen literally at that time then someone (sacred or secular) forget to write done about the greatest natural phenomenon taking place since the creation of heaven and earth. Edited May 28, 2011 by Wilchbla

[Covenanter]

We need a new thread to discuss poetry & prophecy.

[dantheman2]

I'm being facetious to make a point. Not all of Joel was fulfilled at that time. The sun and moon literally didn't change and the earth didn't shake at the presence of the Lord (Haggai 2:6,7). If someone was to claim that it did happen then he would have to spiritualize the whole passage and say Peter was just being poetic about the celetial bodies. And if it did happen literally at that time then someone (sacred or secular) forget to write done about the greatest natural phenomenon taking place since the creation of heaven and earth.

I am not suggesting that ever word written by Joel was fulfilled on that day. Certainly that which Peter spoke of from Joel 2 was fulfilled since Peter by inspiration stated that it was.