Dispensationalism

[Brother Rick]

The NT Scriptures you cite do not teach dispensationalism, you are using them to support the imposed disp hermeneutic.

Careful, brother, if you do hermeneutics too quickly after lunch or without stretching you can get a cramp.

Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
.....
20 ¶ There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah's vision of a perfect NH&NE includes death at a full age. It also includes accursed sinners. There are the same obvious problems for both disp & cov. I see such visions as an idealised state of the people of God, rather than a prophecy literal in every detail. The visions are clrified by NT teaching.

“Idealised” [sic] - what? You don’t take it literal? No way! I never saw that coming! So, "idealy" people still die and "idealy" there's still sin AFTER God creates a New Heavens and New Earth? That doesn't sound very ideal to me; that sounds like a real drag to me.

Is. 65:20, "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

In whatever age that’s speaking of, it clearly states that A CHILD dies at the age of 100. In the New Heavens and New Earth NO ONE dies. This is abundantly clear from Scripture.

I Cor. 15:26, “The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.”

Rev. 21:4, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

Old Testament prophecy jumps from the First Advent to the Second Advent all the time in a single chapter, sometimes even in a single verse (Is. 61:2), so it’s no surprise to me that Isaiah mentions the New Heavens and the New Earth and then starts talking about the Millennium shortly thereafter.

That’s the only logical way to explain the passage, unless you want to ignore the two very clear passages I just cited and keep death and sin around for all eternity. The passage speaks of two different time periods, they can’t be the same and neither one of them is happening now any more than the Devil is chained in the Bottomless Pit right now.

Rev. 20:3, “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

I Peter 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”

II Cor. 4:4, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

When, exactly, was the Devil put in the Bottomless Pit again?

[anime4christ]

The core idea behind dispensationalism is that national Israel (which is weird when you consider the fact that people mix races all the time.. I'm part Jewish so I don't know if I have special status above Christians or not before God if disp is true) and gentiles are forever separate (some disp say until the eternal state while others claim for eternity it is so). The only exception is that Christian Jews are now part of the church along with gentile Christians. So, in the end, you end up with three different groups: The church (comprised of saved Jews and gentiles), the Jews (which are not saved, but get auto-saved status apart from faith if they make it to the second coming), and the gentiles (which are basically headed to hell if they don't ever get saved unlike the insured Jews).

The core idea behind Covenant Theology is that ever since the fall, man can only be saved by grace. Man has a fallen nature and is sinful and therefore cannot do anything to save himself. Covenant Theology therefore sees two groups: The saved and the unsaved so if you're in the latter group, you better repent and believe and get in the other group. There are no second chances at the second coming, no matter if you are a Jew or your second cousin on your mother's side 3 times removed is one.

Both systems take a different approach to theology from a totally different direction and were not meant to compete, so there are some ideas which exist in both systems. On the other hand, they are incompatible, because CT never envisioned dispensationalism's artificial separation of Jew and gentile in the New Covenant.

New Covenant Theology is somewhat in between CT and disp with its own ideas as well.

I happen to be in between CT and NCT (probably more CT), but I don't really subscribe to any one system. I can say I definitely oppose dispensationalism because I don't see that separation of Jew and gentile under the New Covenant. In fact, I see quite the opposite:

Ephesians 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

[John81]

The core idea behind dispensationalism is that national Israel (which is weird when you consider the fact that people mix races all the time.. I'm part Jewish so I don't know if I have special status above Christians or not before God if disp is true) and gentiles are forever separate (some disp say until the eternal state while others claim for eternity it is so). The only exception is that Christian Jews are now part of the church along with gentile Christians. So, in the end, you end up with three different groups: The church (comprised of saved Jews and gentiles), the Jews (which are not saved, but get auto-saved status apart from faith if they make it to the second coming), and the gentiles (which are basically headed to hell if they don't ever get saved unlike the insured Jews).

The core idea behind Covenant Theology is that ever since the fall, man can only be saved by grace. Man has a fallen nature and is sinful and therefore cannot do anything to save himself. Covenant Theology therefore sees two groups: The saved and the unsaved so if you're in the latter group, you better repent and believe and get in the other group. There are no second chances at the second coming, no matter if you are a Jew or your second cousin on your mother's side 3 times removed is one.

Both systems take a different approach to theology from a totally different direction and were not meant to compete, so there are some ideas which exist in both systems. On the other hand, they are incompatible, because CT never envisioned dispensationalism's artificial separation of Jew and gentile in the New Covenant.

New Covenant Theology is somewhat in between CT and disp with its own ideas as well.

I happen to be in between CT and NCT (probably more CT), but I don't really subscribe to any one system. I can say I definitely oppose dispensationalism because I don't see that separation of Jew and gentile under the New Covenant. In fact, I see quite the opposite:

Ephesians 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

I'm not a dispensationalist, but it's my understand that the Jews don't have an auto-save status and only those who accept Christ will be saved. From what I've read it's said to go something like this: during the Great Tribulation two-thirds of all Jews will die. The third that doesn't die will finally recognize and accept Christ as their Saviour. Those Jews would thus be saved by grace just as all others and none are guarenteed salvation, just as with the Gentiles.

[Brother Rick]

I don't know any dispensationalists that believe Jews get a special way to Heaven. Everyone gets saved the same way by grace through faith now and even in the Tribulation.

Where dispensationalists differ is the Old Testament promises to the nation of Israel. We think God will keep His promises when it comes to Israel's land grant, the other guys don't.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[anime4christ]

What I mean by auto-saved status is that the Jews who survive to the end of the Tribulation will have no choice but be saved at Christ's second coming. Which by the way would be salvation by grace through sight instead of salvation by grace through faith as we have today. It is also funny that synergistic dispensationalists take Romans 11:26 to mean all national Israel and yet they claim that God never forces anyone to choose Him. I wonder how that works, but that would be getting off topic.

[John81]

What I mean by auto-saved status is that the Jews who survive to the end of the Tribulation will have no choice but be saved at Christ's second coming. Which by the way would be salvation by grace through sight instead of salvation by grace through faith as we have today. It is also funny that synergistic dispensationalists take Romans 11:26 to mean all national Israel and yet they claim that God never forces anyone to choose Him. I wonder how that works, but that would be getting off topic.

I take it the situation is more akin to what happened with Thomas. Thomas refused to believe unless he saw the resurrected Jesus. In the case of the Jews in the Tribulation, it seems that those who are alive when He returns will come to believing faith upon seeing. It's not that seeing Jesus will save them, but they will come to believe at that point. This isn't something God is forcing, but rather something God is fortelling us.

[Invicta]

I don't know any dispensationalists that believe Jews get a special way to Heaven. Everyone gets saved the same way by grace through faith now and even in the Tribulation.

Where dispensationalists differ is the Old Testament promises to the nation of Israel. We think God will keep His promises when it comes to Israel's land grant, the other guys don't.

Rick

Please can you list the scripture promises of land grant in the OT, for us to peruse?

Thanks

David

[anime4christ]

I take it the situation is more akin to what happened with Thomas. Thomas refused to believe unless he saw the resurrected Jesus. In the case of the Jews in the Tribulation, it seems that those who are alive when He returns will come to believing faith upon seeing. It's not that seeing Jesus will save them, but they will come to believe at that point. This isn't something God is forcing, but rather something God is fortelling us.

I can't remember it at the moment, but there is a verse that says that the second time Jesus comes, He will come to judge as opposed to calling people to repentance during His first coming. The implication is that repentance is not an option at the second coming. Thomas seeing the resurrected Jesus is not the same as when people see Jesus at His second coming and mourn (because it's too late). Not to mention that none of the apostles believed until they saw the resurrected Jesus. Thomas just happened to see Him after they did.

[JerryNumbers]

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Jerry80871852