Male/Female Roles

[John81]

What is the state, or condition, of male/female roles in your church? Your family...immediate and extended? In your locale?

The radio station I normally listen to was having problems this morning so I tuned into a little local station and heard some great discussions regarding families and the church. This led into some deep discussions regarding the role of Christian men and women, more specifically within the family and the church.

I've noticed of late a few fundamentalist churches attempting to biblically address this, as well as several Covenant churches and organizations which have been promoting the restoration of biblical marriages, families and through this the biblical exercise of male/female roles within the church and society at large.

At the same time, many churches basically ignore this topic for reasons of political correctness, fear of upsetting women, fear of making husbands/fathers uneasy, fear of loss of numbers and money.

How does your church deal with this topic? What about your family, or you personally? Do area churches take a biblical approach to this, worldly, or try to be neutral?

This is such a key topic that seems many prefer to ignore. This one issue is key with regards to marriage, the training of children, future marriages, the operation of the church, etc.

How can we best apply what the Word says in this area? What are some hindrances to applying the Word in this area and how can we overcome them?

(I considered posting several passages and verses on this topic in the OP but decided it might be better if we posted them separately as they specifically apply in a post)

[mattd]

What is the state, or condition, of male/female roles in your church? Your family...immediate and extended? In your locale?

The radio station I normally listen to was having problems this morning so I tuned into a little local station and heard some great discussions regarding families and the church. This led into some deep discussions regarding the role of Christian men and women, more specifically within the family and the church.

I've noticed of late a few fundamentalist churches attempting to biblically address this, as well as several Covenant churches and organizations which have been promoting the restoration of biblical marriages, families and through this the biblical exercise of male/female roles within the church and society at large.

At the same time, many churches basically ignore this topic for reasons of political correctness, fear of upsetting women, fear of making husbands/fathers uneasy, fear of loss of numbers and money.

How does your church deal with this topic? What about your family, or you personally? Do area churches take a biblical approach to this, worldly, or try to be neutral?

This is such a key topic that seems many prefer to ignore. This one issue is key with regards to marriage, the training of children, future marriages, the operation of the church, etc.

How can we best apply what the Word says in this area? What are some hindrances to applying the Word in this area and how can we overcome them?

(I considered posting several passages and verses on this topic in the OP but decided it might be better if we posted them separately as they specifically apply in a post)

Forgive me, but I'm having a little trouble understanding what you are getting at. Are you asking what functions men/women serve in the church (as in, who preaches, who takes up the offering, who runs the nursery)?

[JerryNumbers]

A very confusing topic for most churches, for most professing Christians, for most churches actually has most everyone holding to a different behavior in church than out of church.

An example is how most professing Christians behave, they hold to one set of standards, behavior, in church, yet a complete different set of standards, behavior, whem they leave church into the world.

[John81]

What roles do Christian women and men fill, or not, in the church, at home, in society? What roles are biblical? How do these mesh?

Yes indeed, there are many who conduct themselves in one manner at church, another at home, and perhaps yet even another in society (at work, while shopping, going out, on vacations, etc.). This is why I asked what others are seeing, how this is in their church and in their homes, because it does vary widely.

What does Scripture say about how the husband/father is to carry himself and what is his responsibility? And the wife/mother? In the church, the home, in society...

Are we doing this, why or why not? What about our churches and those near us?

For far too many Christians this seems to be one of those areas they don't want to face, don't want to discuss and certainly don't want to hear any preaching on. This is why those churches and groups which are trying to revive this aspect of biblical teaching really stand out today.

[John81]

Is it safe to consider that many here don't think they are obeying the Word in this area so don't want to discuss this or is it just a case of many preferring the debates about men wearing kilts, whether the OT giants were the offspring of angel/human mating, or whether or not a Christian should or shouldn't vote for ungodly candidates?

We have a local church that is imploding and in part this stems from men not doing their biblical duty and women taking on mens roles, both in the church and in the home. The effects of this can also be seen in the youth of that church which are very worldly; prone to excessive drinking, premarital sex and multiple partners before a pregnancy finally occurs.

A few from that church have fled to our church and it's been a blessing to see how they have been welcomed, invited to join in Sunday school and Bible studies, and have been encouraged and edified by use of the Word and the example of Christian love.

On a more personal note, I surely do wish that someone had been around to help explain these biblical matters to me when I was a new Christian and while I was yet young in the Lord. Due to a lack of discipleship, a lack of Christians willing to share what they knew and had learned by practical application, my understanding and growth in this area was seriously lacking for the first several years as a Christian.

From what missionaries have told me, this sort of thing is peculiar to the West, and especially to America. In India, Africa and other areas it seems Christians have a zeal to open up to one another, to seek help, to give help, to disciple, to mentor, to share what they have learned, to share their own testimonies (not only of salvation but also of life matters during their walk with the Lord), to pass on what they have learned through practical application of the Scripture in their lives, to share the Gospel with the lost and then either personally discipling them or introducing them to someone who can and never leaving new converts out on their own. These Christians take the fact all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ seriously and they draw close to one another, seeking the best for one another in Christian love as true family.

Meanwhile here in America the norm is for professing Christians to be individualistic, mostly isolated, and unwilling to embrace their fellow Christians as family and to help them as family in the love of Christ.

[trc123]

Perhaps posters are tired of having their knuckles rapped (metaphorically speaking).

[Bro Jim]

If I rad John's post the way i think i read it, then the question has to do with who is running what and or who. Is the woman running the family when it is the husband's responsibility, are women usurping authority over men in the church? Etc. Is that which we are seeing going on a patriarchal society or a matriarchal society? Who running things and who does the Bible say are to be running things?

As far as the elders teaching the younger, or society has become so youth centered that the old paths are not welcome or even desired anymore. That is why it is going to be so hard to bring or have a revival in this country. We must have a revival centered around repentance and prayer. And we want a revival centered around what "I want." Until we look to God for what He wants and quit looking to self. I know this is off topic, but it is a large part of the problem

[John81]

Perhaps posters are tired of having their knuckles rapped (metaphorically speaking).

Why are knuckles being rapped? If we are all in Christ then we should be able to have edifying discussions. We shouldn't be walking on pins and needles and we should not be so controlled by our flesh that we can't discuss without our flesh becoming inflamed. Even if our flesh does become inflamed, this is a message board, we are not in a face-to-face conversation where we may have to reply instantly. Here we have the option to step away, calm down, pray and then decided if and what we will post.

[John81]

If I rad John's post the way i think i read it, then the question has to do with who is running what and or who. Is the woman running the family when it is the husband's responsibility, are women usurping authority over men in the church? Etc. Is that which we are seeing going on a patriarchal society or a matriarchal society? Who running things and who does the Bible say are to be running things?

As far as the elders teaching the younger, or society has become so youth centered that the old paths are not welcome or even desired anymore. That is why it is going to be so hard to bring or have a revival in this country. We must have a revival centered around repentance and prayer. And we want a revival centered around what "I want." Until we look to God for what He wants and quit looking to self. I know this is off topic, but it is a large part of the problem

Pertaining to your first paragraph...yes, that's a part of what I'm talking about, though it extends much deeper and farther than that.

As to the second paragraph...Very well put, and I agree. We do indeed need to put away our self, casting off our old man, putting on Christ. This is why we should discuss practical application of the Scripture in our lives, our families, our churches and in society in general.

We absolutely need revival, and revival always begins with individuals and families. How wonderful to read in Scripture how some came to the Lord, them and their whole household!

In order for such to happen today, we need to get our own lives set right with God, and our families, and our churches. If we take these three steps then the fruit will spread forth to society as well.

Sadly, I've noticed that it's not only here that folks don't want to discuss what the Bible says about such matters and what that means in practical application, but it's also in most churches too. If a study or conference is held on general family stuff or the raising of children, they may be well attended. However, if such is planned where what the Bible teaches will be presented and we will all be challenged to apply the Word of God in this area of our lives, attendees are very few.

It's sad that American Christians seem to feel the need to present a picture of perfection for others to see while holding onto their pet unbiblical ways as they hide from the truth of Scripture on the matter.

[Invicta]

In our church we would not have women preachers or teachers. At our midweek meeting we, on very rare ocassions, have women describing their missionary work.

At home, when our children were small, and as I was at work for long periods, we agreed that we would honour each other's decisions, regarding the children. We would not allow a "No" from one of us be challenged by asking the other. Any disagreements on whether we had made the correct decision was held out of the hearing of the children.

As regards this, and other, boards, women do exercise spiritual oversite in their comments and locking threads they don't like. My question was "Should they?" Nothing to do with my "Male ego."

[John81]

In our church we would not have women preachers or teachers. At our midweek meeting we, on very rare ocassions, have women describing their missionary work.

At home, when our children were small, and as I was at work for long periods, we agreed that we would honour each other's decisions, regarding the children. We would not allow a "No" from one of us be challenged by asking the other. Any disagreements on whether we had made the correct decision was held out of the hearing of the children.

As regards this, and other, boards, women do exercise spiritual oversite in their comments and locking threads they don't like. My question was "Should they?" Nothing to do with my "Male ego."

Parents standing united in front of the children is important. We established the same rule. It's not good for children to get the impression they can manipulate their parents by pitting one against the other. I've seen this occur in too many families and it's not pretty. Disagreements between the parents regarding children should be handled in private, between the parents. Hopefully, over time, husband and wife will know one another well enough and have discussed and experienced enough that disagreements will become fewer.

Touching on "male ego"; I certainly had one as a teen and into my 20s but the Lord soon taught me just how weak and limited I am and broke that ego...praise God!

[Seth Doty]

Why are knuckles being rapped? If we are all in Christ then we should be able to have edifying discussions. We shouldn't be walking on pins and needles and we should not be so controlled by our flesh that we can't discuss without our flesh becoming inflamed. Even if our flesh does become inflamed, this is a message board, we are not in a face-to-face conversation where we may have to reply instantly. Here we have the option to step away, calm down, pray and then decided if and what we will post.

As the scripture says "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Speaking for myself the fact of the matter is I rarely have edifying spiritual discussions that I feel benefit me personally except when they are with people I generally agree with. Likewise I am unlikely to ask someones opinion on bible passage or spiritual matter I have no solid opinion on if I think they are very frequenting wrong in other areas I am much more confident about. Why? Because if I don't particularly value their opinion based on their track record on things I am sure of why would I want to increase my chances of developing a wrong view by asking their opinions on things I am not completely sure of? I am sure many perhaps even most people think the same way. Iron sharpens iron but while clanging swords together might teach one how to stand and fight for the right it tends to put nicks in your shield and doesn't do much for the sharpness of your sword if you don't keep up your equipment in other ways. While as you say (starting from the assumption of prior salvation) we may "all be in Christ" on one level we definitely are not "all in Christ" to the same degree on a different level. Paul said he preached to Christians everywhere and in every church on the need to "be in Christ" and he wasn't talking about salvation. Scripture says: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." I don't know about you but in my case I know very well that while some things may have become new and other things are "newer" than they once were "all things" have not yet become new. Why? because while I may be "in Christ" to a degree there is plenty of room to be more in Christ and that is just speaking of things I know about now not things the Lord might reveal as I progress. You might be more "in Christ than I am, I might be more "in Christ than someone else, and so on. Put all that together and you do not have a great recipe for everyone getting along. In most any large group your going to have people fighting the works of the flesh, the attitudes of the world, and the wiles of the devil in themselves and in others. As a result it is a lot more likely to look like a war zone, which indeed it is, than a place to relax a bit, sharpen your sword, and be edified. This is particularly true when you realize that on top of all the other pressures mentioned there are always going to be many people who may seem generally ok but are at a spiritual dead end in their lives and are not even going to be making improvements and progressing further into being "in Christ" until they deal with some of the things in their lives that they know to be either flat wrong or spiritual "weights" that need to be laid aside.

[John81]

As the scripture says "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Speaking for myself the fact of the matter is I rarely have edifying spiritual discussions that I feel benefit me personally except when they are with people I generally agree with. Likewise I am unlikely to ask someones opinion on bible passage or spiritual matter I have no solid opinion on if I think they are very frequenting wrong in other areas I am much more confident about. Why? Because if I don't particularly value their opinion based on their track record on things I am sure of why would I want to increase my chances of developing a wrong view by asking their opinions on things I am not completely sure of? I am sure many perhaps even most people think the same way. Iron sharpens iron but while clanging swords together might teach one how to stand and fight for the right it tends to put nicks in your shield and doesn't do much for the sharpness of your sword if you don't keep up your equipment in other ways. While as you say (starting from the assumption of prior salvation) we may "all be in Christ" on one level we definitely are not "all in Christ" to the same degree on a different level. Paul said he preached to Christians everywhere and in every church on the need to "be in Christ" and he wasn't talking about salvation. Scripture says: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." I don't know about you but in my case I know very well that while some things may have become new and other things are "newer" than they once were "all things" have not yet become new. Why? because while I may be "in Christ" to a degree there is plenty of room to be more in Christ and that is just speaking of things I know about now not things the Lord might reveal as I progress. You might be more "in Christ than I am, I might be more "in Christ than someone else, and so on. Put all that together and you do not have a great recipe for everyone getting along. In most any large group your going to have people fighting the works of the flesh, the attitudes of the world, and the wiles of the devil in themselves and in others. As a result it is a lot more likely to look like a war zone, which indeed it is, than a place to relax a bit, sharpen your sword, and be edified. This is particularly true when you realize that on top of all the other pressures mentioned there are always going to be many people who may seem generally ok but are at a spiritual dead end in their lives and are not even going to be making improvements and progressing further into being "in Christ" until they deal with some of the things in their lives that they know to be either flat wrong or spiritual "weights" that need to be laid aside.

I understand what you are saying here but that should be grounds for us to come together and share what we know, what we have learned through experience, what struggle we may have, what we have tried and found not to work, what does work, to seek clarification, to help one another and be helped of one another.

These same issues were addressed in the epistles where we are told to come together in the unity of Christ. All of us regardless of where our spiritual walk is, should be coming together for the benefit those in need finding help, those Christ has taught being able to share, and for all of us to be lifted up in Christ.

As Scripture indicates, it's when we allow our flesh to rise up and self-centeredness, anger, childishness, fear, lust and such things come forth that conflict comes about. Again, these are things we all must, or should, deal with in our lives and we should seek out help in this and we should offer help in this. It could be you have victory in an area I need help in and I have victory in an area you need help in and the Lord can use us to help share one anothers burdens and grow in the Lord together.

Christians are not to walk through this life solo, we are to share one anothers burdens, to edify one another, to lifte one another up, to rejoice and cry with one another. Avoiding coming together to avoid possible conflict hinders this and is part of the reason so many churches are filled with people who barely know one another. This is also one of the reasons so many drop out of church.

We are to be loving one another as Christ loves us, not hiding from one another, not assulting one another with personal shots over a disagreement or misunderstanding, we should be concerned about one anothers best interests in Christ, laying aside all pettyness.

May we learn to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh, may we learn to submit to one another in love, esteeming each other as better than ourselves, putting the will of God above our own will for His glory and honour.

[JerryNumbers]

As the scripture says "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Speaking for myself the fact of the matter is I rarely have edifying spiritual discussions that I feel benefit me personally except when they are with people I generally agree with. Likewise I am unlikely to ask someones opinion on bible passage or spiritual matter I have no solid opinion on if I think they are very frequenting wrong in other areas I am much more confident about. Why? Because if I don't particularly value their opinion based on their track record on things I am sure of why would I want to increase my chances of developing a wrong view by asking their opinions on things I am not completely sure of? I am sure many perhaps even most people think the same way. Iron sharpens iron but while clanging swords together might teach one how to stand and fight for the right it tends to put nicks in your shield and doesn't do much for the sharpness of your sword if you don't keep up your equipment in other ways. While as you say (starting from the assumption of prior salvation) we may "all be in Christ" on one level we definitely are not "all in Christ" to the same degree on a different level. Paul said he preached to Christians everywhere and in every church on the need to "be in Christ" and he wasn't talking about salvation. Scripture says: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." I don't know about you but in my case I know very well that while some things may have become new and other things are "newer" than they once were "all things" have not yet become new. Why? because while I may be "in Christ" to a degree there is plenty of room to be more in Christ and that is just speaking of things I know about now not things the Lord might reveal as I progress. You might be more "in Christ than I am, I might be more "in Christ than someone else, and so on. Put all that together and you do not have a great recipe for everyone getting along. In most any large group your going to have people fighting the works of the flesh, the attitudes of the world, and the wiles of the devil in themselves and in others. As a result it is a lot more likely to look like a war zone, which indeed it is, than a place to relax a bit, sharpen your sword, and be edified. This is particularly true when you realize that on top of all the other pressures mentioned there are always going to be many people who may seem generally ok but are at a spiritual dead end in their lives and are not even going to be making improvements and progressing further into being "in Christ" until they deal with some of the things in their lives that they know to be either flat wrong or spiritual "weights" that need to be laid aside.

Good thoughts all the way though, and the latter ones I put in bold will probably try and lead everyone, no matter where they are, in an un-scriptural direction, and fight to go in that direction.

[John81]

Good thoughts all the way though, and the latter ones I put in bold will probably try and lead everyone, no matter where they are, in an un-scriptural direction, and fight to go in that direction.

This is something common in many Christian circles and is common preaching among many pastors today. That is the idea that since we can't be perfect anyway, why bother! Of course they most often don't put it that bluntly, but that's their message and teaching. One thing they love to do is point to a popular pastor who takes an unbiblical position and use that as their excuse to hold the same position he does.

I hadn't heard of him until recently, but apparently somebody names Rob Bell ( I think that's it) is supposed to be a popular pastor, and he recently came out with a book saying he doesn't believe in a literal hell. Of course he's not the first to say this, but being a popular pastor, it seems many are now saying that if someone like him believes that, then they will too.

There are many professing Christians who come to the point that they are "good enough" or they have reach a high enough spiritual level they don't need to bother with other areas.

In the area of men and women obeying the Word of God as pertains directly to them in their gender roles and in terms of being a father/mother, wife/husband, etc., most professing Christians are content to ignore God, follow Frank Sinatra and do it "their way". They have built in excuses if anyone dare confront them, but they aren't about to be any different than all the other men and women in their church or community by doing as God says. Unfortunately, we see abundant evidence of that right here on this board.