Verses of cooperation

[dantheman2]

I have actually looked and studied extensively church history and Christian doctrine. I have visited many different churches of many different denominations, and have concluded that in the essentials, all mainline denominations are really the same. We might express our faith a little differently, but at the core, we all believe Jesus died, and rose again, and that his God pours out his grace on us through our faith in Christ. Some points where we differ:

1. Calvinism v. Armenian. Does it really matter what we believe? It is what it is. This debate has been going on for centuries. The truth is that God calls people to salvation through Christ. Presbyterians fall into Calvinism, Methodists , Armenian. Baptists are really a mixture these days. But at the core, both doctrines have salvation through grace as poured out in Jesus Christ.

2. Baptism. Is it necessery for salvation? If we do not obey Christ and are not baptized, do we really have faith? This is largely acedemic. Some believe you do not truly have faith unless you follow, and part of following is baptism. Others believe it is purely symbolic. Does it really matter? As a practical matter, I have never met a believer who has not been baptized.

3. Immersion or sprinkling or pouring? There are arguments both ways. In the OT, blood was sprinkled as a purification ritual. In the NT, the Holy Spirit is poured out on believers in baptsim of the Spirit when they accept Christ. Early believers were baptized by immersion in a River. Others in a household where it was likely there was not a body of water to immerse, so what did they do? Perhaps sprinkle or pour. As early as 250 A.D., church leaders have said if a body of running water is unavailalbe, or if a person is physically incapable, pouring is fine. What matters here is the symbolism. Thre is good symbolism in all of it, and reasonable minds can differ as to the meaning of Scripture. I prefer immersion. Others do not. My church does both. The importance is that it is a symbol of what Christ has done and is doing in our hearts through is death and ressurection.

4. Is it ok to drink wine? Reasonalbe minds differ on this. It can go both ways. I think it is fine, others do not. All is good.

5. Speaking in tongues. Did this gift stop in the NT, or does it continue today? I believe it continues to some extent, as I cannot read the Bible otherwise without great intellectual acrobatics.

6. Women in ministry. Did what Paul write apply to a specific situation and culture, or did he write to the universal church? Reasonable minds can differ on this point. There were clearly women deacons in the Bible (Phoebe), and great women leaders (Debrah, the women down by the RIver on Paul's missionary journey, etc.). this is up to the local church to decide. However, it should never be a divisive issue in a local church.

I can go on and on. There are many, many differences of opinion. There are many ways reasonable minds can differ on the interpretation of Scripture. An important question to ask is what does Scripture mean? Is this to be read literally or symbolically? Does this address a specfic situation? If so, what is the universal principal that can be taken away from the passage? What did the writing mean in the context in which it was written? What does it mean today? In Biblical exegesis, good strong minds can reach different conclusions. That is why we have so many denominations. Reasonable minds differ. Two people, earnestly seeking God in prayer can reach to opposing conclusions. It happens over and over again.

So at what time do you propose separating ways? Must we agree 100% of the time? If I agree with all of your beliefs, but I drink wine and you do not, do you separate? If we agree 99% of the time, but I believe that God may give some the gift to tongues today, and you do not, do we separate? If two people agree on everything, but one believes in predestination, and the other does not, are they to separate?

It is easy to say you must follow God's truth. But what is God's truth, when two people, earnestly seeking God, and reading the same text, reach different conclusions? One important scriptural principals is maintaining unity. I believe that as long as a person accepts Jesus, believes in him, and has called out to God, God will, by his grace, bring salvation. That person is my brother or sister in Christ, whether they follow the Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Church of Christ, Lutheren, Catholic, Episcopal, or Anglican Christian tradition.

This really is my last post in this thread. I intended my last to be, but was compelled to respond to this. Obviously, many on this board view me as in rebellion to God, lost, wayward, or whatever you want to call it. And that is fine by me, because I know that God has given me salvation thorugh his son Jesus, that I am seeking to be a follower and disciple of Christ, and that I seek to follow the Holy Spirit on a daily basis has he prompts. So what no man says bothers me. What does bother me is how some are so divisive, judgmental, and claim that it is from God.

I'm out.

No, reasonalbe minds really can't disagree. They can't disagree because it isn't a matter of agreeing and disagreeing with each other's opinions but a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with Biblical facts.

Each point which you discussed is clearly taught in the Word. Yes, we have different views about each but the BIble only has 1 fact on each. Either I am in agreement with the Word on these points or I am opposed to the Will of God. I believe we can see what the Bible has to say about that situation.

[JerryNumbers]

I have actually looked and studied extensively church history and Christian doctrine. I have visited many different churches of many different denominations, and have concluded that in the essentials, all mainline denominations are really the same. We might express our faith a little differently, but at the core, we all believe Jesus died, and rose again, and that his God pours out his grace on us through our faith in Christ. Some points where we differ:

1. Calvinism v. Armenian. Does it really matter what we believe? It is what it is. This debate has been going on for centuries. The truth is that God calls people to salvation through Christ. Presbyterians fall into Calvinism, Methodists , Armenian. Baptists are really a mixture these days. But at the core, both doctrines have salvation through grace as poured out in Jesus Christ.

2. Baptism. Is it necessery for salvation? If we do not obey Christ and are not baptized, do we really have faith? This is largely acedemic. Some believe you do not truly have faith unless you follow, and part of following is baptism. Others believe it is purely symbolic. Does it really matter? As a practical matter, I have never met a believer who has not been baptized.

3. Immersion or sprinkling or pouring? There are arguments both ways. In the OT, blood was sprinkled as a purification ritual. In the NT, the Holy Spirit is poured out on believers in baptsim of the Spirit when they accept Christ. Early believers were baptized by immersion in a River. Others in a household where it was likely there was not a body of water to immerse, so what did they do? Perhaps sprinkle or pour. As early as 250 A.D., church leaders have said if a body of running water is unavailalbe, or if a person is physically incapable, pouring is fine. What matters here is the symbolism. Thre is good symbolism in all of it, and reasonable minds can differ as to the meaning of Scripture. I prefer immersion. Others do not. My church does both. The importance is that it is a symbol of what Christ has done and is doing in our hearts through is death and ressurection.

4. Is it ok to drink wine? Reasonalbe minds differ on this. It can go both ways. I think it is fine, others do not. All is good.

5. Speaking in tongues. Did this gift stop in the NT, or does it continue today? I believe it continues to some extent, as I cannot read the Bible otherwise without great intellectual acrobatics.

6. Women in ministry. Did what Paul write apply to a specific situation and culture, or did he write to the universal church? Reasonable minds can differ on this point. There were clearly women deacons in the Bible (Phoebe), and great women leaders (Debrah, the women down by the RIver on Paul's missionary journey, etc.). this is up to the local church to decide. However, it should never be a divisive issue in a local church.

I can go on and on. There are many, many differences of opinion. There are many ways reasonable minds can differ on the interpretation of Scripture. An important question to ask is what does Scripture mean? Is this to be read literally or symbolically? Does this address a specfic situation? If so, what is the universal principal that can be taken away from the passage? What did the writing mean in the context in which it was written? What does it mean today? In Biblical exegesis, good strong minds can reach different conclusions. That is why we have so many denominations. Reasonable minds differ. Two people, earnestly seeking God in prayer can reach to opposing conclusions. It happens over and over again.

So at what time do you propose separating ways? Must we agree 100% of the time? If I agree with all of your beliefs, but I drink wine and you do not, do you separate? If we agree 99% of the time, but I believe that God may give some the gift to tongues today, and you do not, do we separate? If two people agree on everything, but one believes in predestination, and the other does not, are they to separate?

It is easy to say you must follow God's truth. But what is God's truth, when two people, earnestly seeking God, and reading the same text, reach different conclusions? One important scriptural principals is maintaining unity. I believe that as long as a person accepts Jesus, believes in him, and has called out to God, God will, by his grace, bring salvation. That person is my brother or sister in Christ, whether they follow the Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Church of Christ, Lutheren, Catholic, Episcopal, or Anglican Christian tradition.

This really is my last post in this thread. I intended my last to be, but was compelled to respond to this. Obviously, many on this board view me as in rebellion to God, lost, wayward, or whatever you want to call it. And that is fine by me, because I know that God has given me salvation thorugh his son Jesus, that I am seeking to be a follower and disciple of Christ, and that I seek to follow the Holy Spirit on a daily basis has he prompts. So what no man says bothers me. What does bother me is how some are so divisive, judgmental, and claim that it is from God.

I'm out.

Sorry, you Bible knowledge and knowledge of church history is lacking, although you would fit in well with the liberal Christians of today that teaches acceptance, tolerance, love, and it makes no difference.

[Kyle Karlin]

John 15:6 Jesus Says " If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” Jesus says in Matthew 10:34 " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”. In Matthew 10:35 Jesus says "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” Jesus says in Luke 14:26 “ If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. In Exodus 20:12 God says "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. IN Deuteronomy 5:16 God Says "Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee". I see Jesus violating Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16. And Jesus mentioning Violence or advocating the use of violence against unbelievers. I agree with everyone totally about Islam but mentioning the above verses from the mouth of Jesus he seems to be just as violent as Islam, I believe that the Bible is God's Infallible Word and is as preserved in the King James Bible. I am just asking questions and just would like honest answers and for the case against me John 8:32 Jesus says "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"

[John81]

John 15:6 Jesus Says " If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” Jesus says in Matthew 10:34 " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”. In Matthew 10:35 Jesus says "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” Jesus says in Luke 14:26 “ If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. In Exodus 20:12 God says "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. IN Deuteronomy 5:16 God Says "Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee". I see Jesus violating Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16. And Jesus mentioning Violence or advocating the use of violence against unbelievers. I agree with everyone totally about Islam but mentioning the above verses from the mouth of Jesus he seems to be just as violent as Islam, I believe that the Bible is God's Infallible Word and is as preserved in the King James Bible. I am just asking questions and just would like honest answers and for the case against me John 8:32 Jesus says "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"

This is speaking of spiritual matters, not physical. Jesus is saying we must love Him more than even our parents, spouses or others we love in this world. The division He speaks of is with regards to those who accept Christ and those who don't which will create spiritual differences between them. Again, this isn't speaking of physical swords, separations or any such thing.

Jesus never tells His followers to use violence against unbelievers. Rather He commands that any "war" we wage is in the spiritual realm; in the physical realm we are to pray for our enemies and be the light of Christ.