Are there two wills in God?

[JerryNumbers]

Can anybody else read the whole thread and attest to this? I don't see it for some reason...

heartstrings has tried his best to explain this to you, not once, but many times, others have tried as well, yet you refuse to accept it. You refuse to accept some real simple, easy to understand verses, chosing not to believe they say, whosoever & or all.


For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)

Whosoever in the above verse means anyone that will call upon the name of the Lord. To say it does not is to say the Bible is wrong and to disagree with God.

If, and only if, those verses that speak of election, predestination, means that only a certain few are included in the whosoever in the above verse and other verses, and the all in many verses, them the Bible contradicts it self and not one single word of it can be trusted.

[JerryNumbers]

Amen. I think most of the emotion is because the idea that God is sovereign in salvation goes completely against human nature and wounds the ego big time. Before anyone says it's not true though, I'll say that when I first came to reformed theology I was offended, but I did not realize it was my ego that was being wounded. I only saw that it was some time after I became reformed. It's difficult to explain to someone who has not experienced this though, because it does not feel like this to someone who is on the other side of the fence.

Be careful about what you believe when reading from Wikipedia. Many times its nothing more than a gossip column. Plus, Dr. John Rise has many enemies that would love nothing better than to slander him.

[anime4christ]

Apparently, heartstrings didn't get that I was posting in the same vein as he was...

Jerry: Did you read the article in the original post? It addresses the very issue you bring up and the one I refuse to discuss until you have read the article.

OK, can we make a rule for this thread? No more posting here unless you have read the article in the original post from beginning to end. Thank you.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

Apparently, heartstrings didn't get that I was posting in the same vein as he was...

Jerry: Did you read the article in the original post? It addresses the very issue you bring up and the one I refuse to discuss until you have read the article.

OK, can we make a rule for this thread? No more posting here unless you have read the article in the original post from beginning to end. Thank you.

I have been to Piper's church, read his books and have heard several of his sermons. I guess I'll pass on participating because I will not waste any more time with Piper and his 7 point Calvinism and his high regards for apostates such as Rick Warren. I saddens me to see so many "Fundamental Baptists" promoting such a man. That man doesn't even have strong convictions on believer's baptism. Edited September 18, 2010 by MatthewDiscipleOfGod

[JerryNumbers]

Apparently, heartstrings didn't get that I was posting in the same vein as he was...

Jerry: Did you read the article in the original post? It addresses the very issue you bring up and the one I refuse to discuss until you have read the article.

OK, can we make a rule for this thread? No more posting here unless you have read the article in the original post from beginning to end. Thank you.

Why reject what simple Bible verse declare? If you will not believe them, them there is nothing that will convince you of this truth, for your not trusting God's written Word.

[MaxKennedy]

Say that I wanted Anime4Christ to be eaten by a lion. So I put you in a place that I know there are lions.
It's my will for you to be eaten by a lion, correct? Would I know WHICH lion was going to kill you? No. The only difference is that God would know which lion was going to get you. That's it, brotherman. Just becasue God knows everything, doesn't mean He makes it happen. Judas betrayed Jesus because that was what he wanted to do. But Jesus is God, my friend, and he knew Judas and what he would do. It was still judas' choice.

Please don't eat Anime4Christ by a lion

[anime4christ]

Why reject what simple Bible verse declare? If you will not believe them, them there is nothing that will convince you of this truth, for your not trusting God's written Word.

I could ask you the same question... like duh.. depending on your position, you will have to say that some verses are talking about a higher level than others.. the question is which; the ones talking about man or the ones about God? Now, how do you reconcile ALL (your favorite word which really always means all when talking about people but never means all when talking about Bible passages) the verses in a consistent manner? This article is about that. How hard is it to read it before continuing bagging on Calvinists. Sheesh, like you guys have nothing else to do.. seriously.

[anime4christ]

Please don't eat Anime4Christ by a lion

Haha! Thank you.. it seems like that's what they would want to happen.. and then they complain about Servetus..

[John81]

What is 7 point Calvinism? Never heard of this one.

[heartstrings]

Please don't eat Anime4Christ by a lion

Sorry, it was just my feeble attempt at an illustration. A waste of time... Nothing will change Anime's mind until he wants that to happen.

[heartstrings]

What is 7 point Calvinism? Never heard of this one.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/resources/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist

[JerryNumbers]

I could ask you the same question... like duh.. depending on your position, you will have to say that some verses are talking about a higher level than others.. the question is which; the ones talking about man or the ones about God? Now, how do you reconcile ALL (your favorite word which really always means all when talking about people but never means all when talking about Bible passages) the verses in a consistent manner? This article is about that. How hard is it to read it before continuing bagging on Calvinists. Sheesh, like you guys have nothing else to do.. seriously.

No, your wrong, for to believe such would make the Bible contradict itself. These very plain simple verses that use whosoever do not contradict other verses. And yes, I understand you can see that and there is nothing that I can do to help you think other wise, only the Holy Spirit to guide can guide you to understand this issue.

[John81]

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/resources/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist

Thank you!

[anime4christ]

Sorry, it was just my feeble attempt at an illustration. A waste of time... Nothing will change Anime's mind until he wants that to happen.

I'm sorry, but your guys' attitude has only solidified me in my position. Instead of reasoning, you guys just start throwing attacks and appeal to emotion every time you fail to prove your point. You ignore all the conditions I set up for discussing this topic and instead of reading the article all the way and discussing it in a calm, rational manner, you just start bashing Calvinism and accuse me of worshiping false gods. That just tells me that you guys aren't capable of discussing things like adults with rules and conditions and cannot prove your point because you give up and resort to attack before you even begin to show your point. You never go deeper than "whosoever".

[heartstrings]

Thank you!

You're welcome. Notice that one of his extra "points" is what is called "double predestination".

Anime,
I have no intentions of reading John Piper's article. I did read down through it until I came upon the first statements of false doctrine(which wasn't very far) and I stopped right there and tried to point it out to you. But you won't have it. Why? Because you have what is called a "will"; in other words, you do what you WANT to do. God will let you do that. But God really is sovereign and He will judge you for the choices you make; good or bad.