Is this really church?

[JerryNumbers]

Church membership became important because, as we see occuring even in the New Testament, many false churches came about.

Today we have everything from very biblical churches to churches which barely acknowledge the Bible. We have watered down churches, worldly churches, false churches, lukewarm churches, cold churches and on fire for the Lord churches.

All may profess to be Christians but all are not biblical Christians. Even among those who may be biblically in Christ there are some who adhere to the Bible, some who accept traditions, some who accept a variety of unbiblical aspects (women pastors, homosexual preists, baptism required for salvation, etc.), some that are mostly biblically sound, etc. All of these can't fellowship together because some of what they accept is so against the Word of God that a Christian truly following Christ can't yoke with them.

There is a need today, and has been for centuries, to have distinctions between what is called churches. We know a traditional IFB church is very different from a Catholic church, for instance, just as there is a difference between the various denominations which are differen from Mormons (yes, Mormons are pretty much accepted as Christian today).

We live in a fallen world where nothing is as it should be. Even the Body of Christ is effected by the fall and this is reflected in the abundance of churches often seen in even small towns. It's not uncommon to see even a small town with a half dozen different churches.

All true Believers are members of the Body of Christ, but because of differences among the variety of churches it can be important to have church membership. However, nOBody is forced to be a member of any church and whether one is a member of a local church or chooses to faithfully attend and support their local church without becoming a member, they are members of the Body of Christ.

One cannot follow Jesus unless they are a member of one of His true Churches. I am not saying they cannot be saved without being a member of one of His true local churches. One can be saved, yet not following Jesus.


Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

And one cannot do as Jesus has done if they leave church membership and worship at church off.

[anime4christ]

One cannot follow Jesus unless they are a member of one of His true Churches. I am not saying they cannot be saved without being a member of one of His true local churches. One can be saved, yet not following Jesus.


Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

And one cannot do as Jesus has done if they leave church membership and worship at church off.

I agree, I just view the biblical church membership or participation as different from the modern church's concept of membership. Today's concept is more like a club membership rather than the biblical model which is participating in each others' needs like a family.

[MaxKennedy]

In the Bible, there was one church per city consisting of up to tens of thousands of people and they gathered in small groups for fellowship. The reason for that is because all the brothers and sisters in Christ that are within walking/riding distance are your brothers and sisters and you are to serve and fellowship with them. This cuts off many questions about local church membership, tithing, serving in other congregations, etc. The modern church has complicated this issue with today's concept of "church membership" which in my opinion was prOBably started by pride. Now, I don't mean that church membership is bad or unbiblical. Biblically, if you are a Christian, you are a member of your local church, and this membership is not a mere piece of paper stating it. Today's concept of being a member of a congregation at one address and not a member of the one next door to it is unbiblical however (taking into account that the congregation next door has biblical teaching, of course).

Hi all - I'm holding my breath and not wanting to say much, since I tend to ride straight into an issue, but I've been thinking about these issues some lately with the intention of preparing myself for some new witnessing soon.

I just wanted to interject something here though - maybe two things, in regards to church membership and maybe the modern concept is started from pride like you mentiooned. Maybe maybe not, but here is some food for thought on that issue:

My research leads me to believe that the golden cup of the great whore (The Roman Catholic Church) is the same as the golden communion cup they are required to have for their eurachrist services, which is complete blasphemy to the Lord. This is a literal fulfulment of prophecy. Most Christians that were killed by that church were ex-communicated before they were killed - ie taken away from the commune, so their blood is literally in that cup - another literal fulfullment.

Now seeing that is what the great whore means by excommunicate, maybe we ought to be careful what we mean so we don't become one of her daughters and not worthy of the lamb. In my opinion, the Supper of the Lord has a lot more real sense to it than just ritual, in the same sense that water baptism has a first and primary meaning - baptism by the Holy Spirit. If someone is really saved, how can anyone deny him a ritual, when he is already feasting with God and the saints by the only real meaning of the ritual? If you have been saved by the Holy Spirit, and God is love, and those who love are in God and God in them, you are feasting in an (agape) love feast. If you are sinning, you aren't feasting at the moment, but thats the prOBlem with sinning.

In other words, you can kick me out of your churches as much as you like, but denying me a little cup and bread (of ever increasing cheapness) isn't going to amount to anything, because I have a better feast with the Lord that no one can take away. That bread and cup represents the Lord's blood and body given to me, and if he loved me that much, we ought to love one another too. But even in baptist churches, this is made one of two sacrements in essense, designed to hold together basptist doctrine, but not to the Lord's glory. Not saying they aren't something we are suppose to do as Christians, I'm saying when we don't watch it, it becomes a man made church thing again. Lots of churches have changed this to something it isn't - we should watch.

Two. Have you ever noticed that no one was around when Philip baptised in acts? Where was the "local church"? Jesus said where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am, and that is all there was needed there. FYI - this is the primary verse for believers baptism too, and modern translators have been trying to remove it.

[MaxKennedy]

I agree, I just view the biblical church membership or participation as different from the modern church's concept of membership. Today's concept is more like a club membership rather than the biblical model which is participating in each others' needs like a family.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

[MaxKennedy]

One last OBservation - although baptists (and I go to a baptist church too) pride themselves on believers baptism (correct) and the "mode" of the baptism (also biblical) what about the mode of the Lord's supper? The mode of the Lord's Supper in baptist churches doesn't match the mode in the bible at all. I'm all for symbolism matching whats in the bible - but how can you take pride in the mode in one OBservance, and completely not have it in another? FYI - if you want to discuss this, maybe start another thread.

Edit: Well maybe two or three more. How can you put flags in the church before the Lord? And to the so called Christian flag, Roger Williams - old baptist, called that cross the popish cross, and cut it down. And Christmas trees? And Christ-mass? You know, in the early middle ages, that feast wasn't even Christmas, it was the Adam and Eve feast. And the reformers banned Christmas at one time.

Yep - I'm a puritain type. We do all types of things not in the bible in baptist churches - and its getting worse, and going back to Rome (and many of them are working with Rome now in festivals and even revivals etc). Its good to look at other denominations, but its our denomination (baptist) we live in... I'd like to live cleanly in truth, and not have a bunch of man made ideas seeping in.

Edited August 28, 2010 by MaxKennedy

[JerryNumbers]

Hi all - I'm holding my breath and not wanting to say much, since I tend to ride straight into an issue, but I've been thinking about these issues some lately with the intention of preparing myself for some new witnessing soon.

I just wanted to interject something here though - maybe two things, in regards to church membership and maybe the modern concept is started from pride like you mentiooned. Maybe maybe not, but here is some food for thought on that issue:

My research leads me to believe that the golden cup of the great whore (The Roman Catholic Church) is the same as the golden communion cup they are required to have for their eurachrist services, which is complete blasphemy to the Lord. This is a literal fulfulment of prophecy. Most Christians that were killed by that church were ex-communicated before they were killed - ie taken away from the commune, so their blood is literally in that cup - another literal fulfullment.

Now seeing that is what the great whore means by excommunicate, maybe we ought to be careful what we mean so we don't become one of her daughters and not worthy of the lamb. In my opinion, the Supper of the Lord has a lot more real sense to it than just ritual, in the same sense that water baptism has a first and primary meaning - baptism by the Holy Spirit. If someone is really saved, how can anyone deny him a ritual, when he is already feasting with God and the saints by the only real meaning of the ritual? If you have been saved by the Holy Spirit, and God is love, and those who love are in God and God in them, you are feasting in an (agape) love feast. If you are sinning, you aren't feasting at the moment, but thats the prOBlem with sinning.

In other words, you can kick me out of your churches as much as you like, but denying me a little cup and bread (of ever increasing cheapness) isn't going to amount to anything, because I have a better feast with the Lord that no one can take away. That bread and cup represents the Lord's blood and body given to me, and if he loved me that much, we ought to love one another too. But even in baptist churches, this is made one of two sacrements in essense, designed to hold together basptist doctrine, but not to the Lord's glory. Not saying they aren't something we are suppose to do as Christians, I'm saying when we don't watch it, it becomes a man made church thing again. Lots of churches have changed this to something it isn't - we should watch.

Two. Have you ever noticed that no one was around when Philip baptised in acts? Where was the "local church"? Jesus said where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am, and that is all there was needed there. FYI - this is the primary verse for believers baptism too, and modern translators have been trying to remove it.

Phillip had authority to baptize, just as the apostles did, it was given to them by Jesus, now this authority rest within Jesus true local churches, and if your not a member of His true local church, you have no right to the Lords table in that church.


1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

As a pastor of a local church, I have nothing to do with you, I know not one thing about you, all I have anything to do with is those in the church that the Holy Ghost has seen fit to put me over.

For all we know if you came to our church you many well have been booted out of the church your a member of for fornication or some other sin, or it may be you have not attended church services in two years. So you see, I nor the church I pastor has not one thing to do with you.

By the way, if we were voting on some matter while you were visiting us we would not let you vote. If, that is if, your a member of one of Jesus local churches, that is the place for you to partake of the Lord Supper, and to vote on church matters.

By the way, we have the authority to discipline any of our members, but we do not have the authority to discipline a member of another church.

Remember, God's way is not mans way, and we do have an Instruction Book.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We are provided this Instruction Book so that we can know how to follow Jesus, we cannot call Jesus Lord;

Luke 6:46 Jesus asks, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

If we are not doing things His way. So we are to study this Instruction Book, so that we can rightly divide the word of the truth and not be embarrassed.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[MaxKennedy]

Phillip had authority to baptize, just as the apostles did, it was given to them by Jesus, now this authority rest within Jesus true local churches, and if your not a member of His true local church, you have no right to the Lords table in that church.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

As a pastor of a local church, I have nothing to do with you, I know not one thing about you, all I have anything to do with is those in the church that the Holy Ghost has seen fit to put me over.

For all we know if you came to our church you many well have been booted out of the church your a member of for fornication or some other sin, or it may be you have not attended church services in two years. So you see, I nor the church I pastor has not one thing to do with you.

By the way, if we were voting on some matter while you were visiting us we would not let you vote. If, that is if, your a member of one of Jesus local churches, that is the place for you to partake of the Lord Supper, and to vote on church matters.

By the way, we have the authority to discipline any of our members, but we do not have the authority to discipline a member of another church.

Remember, God's way is not mans way, and we do have an Instruction Book.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We are provided this Instruction Book so that we can know how to follow Jesus, we cannot call Jesus Lord;

Luke 6:46 Jesus asks, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

If we are not doing things His way. So we are to study this Instruction Book, so that we can rightly divide the word of the truth and not be embarrassed.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ok, you gave me a whole bunch of ways your church is run, but you have no authority over how any other local church is run, and we are both aware that local baptist churches are run differently, having in general similar doctrine. And yet can be very different!

As I recall, the great commission told us to baptise. It does not say anything about apostles. If you are going to limit baptism to the appointed, please prove your point from scripture, and which appointed you claim are appointed. An apostolic sucession of baptism will not be accepted as an argument with me. The great commision is usually viewed as the same verses that tells all Christians to witness. Tell me if witnessing to someone and seeing them baptised by the Holy Spirit more or less important than water baptism? If not, where is your authority?

You may not win me with your arguments, but I will certainly try to understand them and consider them if they are given biblical.

FYI - saying you have nothing to do with anyone outside your church sounds a little bit like "am I my brother's keeper"? This is a sin I am seeing in local baptist churches too. Yes, a real pastor cares about Jesus's sheep (all of them). But that may not be a man appointed one. If Jesus has to send his angels to take care of someone because men will not, to great shame to all of you! Lukewarmness. In fact, we are called to love our neighbor as ourself. Doesn't say they even have to be saved.

I was at a baptist church once. A pastor who thought a great deal of himself was there. One time I was coming in, and I saw a bumper sticker in the deacons parking lot that said "blessed be" on it, and a lot of other witchcraft goddess stuff on it. I complained about it and they said they would "see what they would do". This was the same church I mentioned earlier trying to limit Christians witnessing. Well, it wasn't more then a week later I went to that pastor and asked for help in a normal thing for a pastor to help on, but not only would he not help, he started slandering me. I guess pointing out something wrong with one of the deacons friends was a no no. It wasn't harmless by the way. The final end result was that a family member died because that pastor would not help, and God punished because of it. Edited August 28, 2010 by MaxKennedy

[MaxKennedy]

FYI - I am a baptist because I believe the doctrine holds truest to the bible, however, while I am on a roll, other things I have seen:

A baptist church where I was an interm gym / youth leader - because I volunteered, not because I had any credentials (much valued today). It was a real blessing while it lasted. I miss one of the kids especially. The previous youth minister (credentialed) left because he was caught smoking pot with an underaged girl in the basement.

A baptist church where I got a lot of argument back for simply pointing out the prOBlems with the catholic church. We're all christians! One of those arguing the most - and also about who can baptize as I recall, was the youth minister. 3-4 years later, his daughter - who was 13 a the time, is on her third out of wedlock kid. Some of the other kids were into wicca - I never could get an effective handle on it at the time to witness to it. And luckly, I left the church because of the catholic association before the rest of it occured.

Speaking of credentials from men, I'm currently seeing a lot of churches including baptists putting their pastors through background checks before they will hire them. How does this have anything to do with using who God sends?? None of the apostles could pass background checks, john the baptist couldn't pass a background check.
Jesus Christ couldn't pass a background check - the Roman authorities killed him. If Jesus Christ can't pass your criteria, you are in deep trouble with
what you care for - which is the things of this world.

We ought to respect our elders and those in authority. But Jesus Christ is our role model, and he was chased out of many places by the chiefs of
the churches in their time. I don't mind getting run out of plenty of churches if Jesus did. But the above examples of apostasy in our churches go on and on.
Christian brothers should take care of each other when one of their own gets run out of a church, not say "well, he's not a member of our
*local* church. If I haven't struck a chord yet, I'll keep trying.

Edited August 28, 2010 by MaxKennedy

[MaxKennedy]

FYI - please bear with me if my online manners aren't that great. I'm trying to unlearn some bad habits, and also been somewhat concerened recently. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone if I seem to aggressive in my style - its a bad habit if thats a case which I'm trying to undo.

[JerryNumbers]

I have no authority over anyone that is a member of another church, the church I'm a member of has no authority over a person who is a member of another church. The church I'm a member of cannot, does not have the authority to discipline a person who is a member of another church.

The church I'm a member of does not tell another church how to run its business. Each local church answers directly to Jesus.

Before you speak of apostles and assume what I said about them go back and look at the context I spoke of them.

If, that is if, a person in another church is saved, they be my brother and sister in Christ. Unfortunately the majority of churches do not teach people how to be saved, they teach salvation comes by works, baptizing, church membership, partaking of the Lord's Supper, such people as that are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. No, every person that is a member of a church, that profess to be a Christian, is not save. the only person who is my brother and or sister in Christ is those who confess they were saved by faith through Jesus Christ, not of self, not of works, its a free gift.

And if a person is actually saved, and they are in a false church, they are to come out from among them, as long as they stay in that false teaching church I refuse to worship with them in any manner.

Your right, you will find many Baptist Churches that do things differently, and even Baptist Churches do things in the wrong way. That is why its so important to try and find one that holds to God's truths.

[MaxKennedy]

And if a person is actually saved, and they are in a false church, they are to come out from among them, as long as they stay in that false teaching church I refuse to worship with them in any manner.

I really don't see anything other then the one true church, the bride of Christ. I have yet to see any local church that is truer than that. All churches have people that may not be saved in them even if they seem to profess the best of doctrine, which doesn't mean you shouldn't seek to fellowship with true believers, but you are prOBably never going to be exclusively fellowshiping with true believers no matter how much you try. Even one of the twelve apostles was a traitor, and he ate at the last supper. No one is greater than the master, so there is always going to be the unsaved in the churches.

Also, I would guess that all seven of the community churches in the beginning of Revelation are "true" churches, although some are in danger of getting removed by the Lord, and some of other things. Churches can't save you, only Jesus Christ can. Edited August 29, 2010 by MaxKennedy

[heartstrings]

I really don't see anything other then the one true church, the bride of Christ. I have yet to see any local church that is truer than that. All churches have people that may not be saved in them even if they seem to profess the best of doctrine, which doesn't mean you shouldn't seek to fellowship with true believers, but you are prOBably never going to be exclusively fellowshiping with true believers no matter how much you try. Even one of the twelve apostles was a traitor, and he ate at the last supper. No one is greater than the master, so there is always going to be the unsaved in the churches.

Also, I would guess that all seven of the community churches in the beginning of Revelation are "true" churches, although some are in danger of getting removed by the Lord, and some of other things. Churches can't save you, only Jesus Christ can.

Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your OBedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

[CPR]

As far as background checks, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. Unfortunately that's being realistic in the world we live in today. Most people in jOBs that work closely with people in one on one and/or sensitive situations have to undergo background checks. Nurses, doctors, teachers, counselors, just to name a few. Google "clergy abuse" or "church abuse" and you will find more results than you can count. It's not just the Catholic church either. Sadly it takes place in all denominations. Churches and Christians have a responsibility to protect their community, parishoners, and fellow Christians. If a simple background check prevents a tragedy, how could anyone OBject? Isn't it worth it? The answer is a resounding yes.

[John81]

I have no authority over anyone that is a member of another church, the church I'm a member of has no authority over a person who is a member of another church. The church I'm a member of cannot, does not have the authority to discipline a person who is a member of another church.

The church I'm a member of does not tell another church how to run its business. Each local church answers directly to Jesus.

Before you speak of apostles and assume what I said about them go back and look at the context I spoke of them.

If, that is if, a person in another church is saved, they be my brother and sister in Christ. Unfortunately the majority of churches do not teach people how to be saved, they teach salvation comes by works, baptizing, church membership, partaking of the Lord's Supper, such people as that are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. No, every person that is a member of a church, that profess to be a Christian, is not save. the only person who is my brother and or sister in Christ is those who confess they were saved by faith through Jesus Christ, not of self, not of works, its a free gift.

And if a person is actually saved, and they are in a false church, they are to come out from among them, as long as they stay in that false teaching church I refuse to worship with them in any manner.

Your right, you will find many Baptist Churches that do things differently, and even Baptist Churches do things in the wrong way. That is why its so important to try and find one that holds to God's truths.

It seems there are a few right here in this forum which neither believe in the importance of the local church nor who believe in separating from unbiblical churches which harm the cause of Christ. Yet these same ones feel they can rightly discern matters of Scripture when they are unable or unwilling to discern the plain Word of God with regards to separating from churches which bring reproach to Christ, they refuse to be true followers of Christ and join a biblical church and allow the Holy Ghost to work within them so they will seek to follow Christ in all things.

Christ says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. Christ says if we are truly His followers then we will OBey His Word.

Even as Jesus walked the earth He was prompted to look upon many and ask them why they called Him Lord when they refused to OBey His Word.

[JerryNumbers]

John, The prOBlem is many of them are convinced that they're right, especially when trying to place everyone under 'one big church.'