Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[John81]

This is exactly why you need to keep Calvinists and their pernicious doctrines out of the Baptist churches. They have ruined the Southern Baptists with their rubbish as well as the Regular Baptists. TULIP Calvinism is the death knell of any church.

I don't know a lot of details about the church because it's so far away but there is a church in this general area which is Calvinist and they have the most aggressive and active outreach of any church in the area. So many in their area have been born again, baptized and added to the church they had to greatly increase their number of services.

They are a Baptist church but I think they are independent, not affiliated with SBC or others.

Spurgeon was a Calvinist with a great zeal for evangelism and saw his church grow greatly too.

Not all Calvinists are like this, but many are.

[heartstrings]

Mark 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

Mark 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not(the wild man of Gadara), but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. 20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[heartstrings]

John 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

[heartstrings]

Matthew 10:3 2Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[heartstrings]

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

[Annie]

Mark 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

Mark 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not(the wild man of Gadara), but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. 20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Right...As I said, none of these are a direct admonition to us to make "soul-winning" the central focus of our lives. Again, I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't actively share their faith...just that I haven't seen any biblical evidence that "that's why believers are here," etc.

Yes, we should "let our light shine"...that's not the same as "soul-winning" as I've seen many churches practice it. Edited July 29, 2010 by Annie

[Annie]

John 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

Another great example, which actually goes right along with my point (that Christians should naturally want to share what they've been given)...but no command or direction for daily life here. My point is that "making" people "go soul-winning," or putting guilt trips on people if they haven't led someone to the Lord in the past year is different than what is going on here.

[anime4christ]

I don't know a lot of details about the church because it's so far away but there is a church in this general area which is Calvinist and they have the most aggressive and active outreach of any church in the area. So many in their area have been born again, baptized and added to the church they had to greatly increase their number of services.

They are a Baptist church but I think they are independent, not affiliated with SBC or others.

Spurgeon was a Calvinist with a great zeal for evangelism and saw his church grow greatly too.

Not all Calvinists are like this, but many are.

John, I have the feeling they're going to ignore you like the past maybe 5 times you mentioned this. Some people are just bent on anti-Calvinism.

[Brother Rick]

John, I have the feeling they're going to ignore you like the past maybe 5 times you mentioned this. Some people are just bent on anti-Calvinism.

I'm bent on anti-Calvinism because it doesn't hold up with the overall weight of scripture. Every heresy has a couple verses in support of it.

Sure, there are some Calvinists that are evangelistic, but that's only because they're not taking their doctrine to heart, thankfully.

[Brother Rick]

I guess it all depends on what you mean by "witnessing." You're correct that the Bible doesn't command us to "witness"...just to share what we have already witnessed: the salvation that is possible through Christ. And, even so, I believe it is only indirectly that we are commanded to do this. The Great Commission was given to the apostles (those present at Christ's ascension). Is there any passage of Scripture that states that a believer's "main jOB" and focus in life is to be "soul-winning?" I was taught (in my IFB school) that the only reason believers are in the world is to "win more converts"...but the older I've gotten, the more I wonder if that idea is really based in Scripture.

I'm not saying we shouldn't share Christ with others; true Christians can't help but do that, each in his own way. But I don't see the biblical basis for the idea mentioned above.

Here's the best I know of. Our main purpose in life is to do whatever pleases the Lord.

Rev. 4:11, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Luke 15:7, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems as though what makes God the happiest is people repenting. Whether that's getting saved or getting right, He get's more pleasure out of that than us just holding the line and letting our light shine. I sure He appreciates that too, of course, but what He really loves is seeing sinners repent. Edited July 29, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

I'm bent on anti-Calvinism because it doesn't hold up with the overall weight of scripture. Every heresy has a couple verses in support of it.

Sure, there are some Calvinists that are evangelistic, but that's only because they're not taking their doctrine to heart, thankfully.

Actually, they are. This is the point I've been trying to get across. The term "Calvinism" is a very broad term and no one definition fits all who call themselves Calvinists or who get labeled as Calvinists.

Some Calvinists are akin to the sort Spurgeon was. They take their doctrine to heart even though that doctrine isn't what you may think it is; isn't what other Calvinists hold to, or isn't what some think of when they think of Calvinism.

I'm not good at searching and can't locate it at the moment, but there is excellent documentation available showing the most evangelistic churches from England and in America during the time period examined were Calvinist churches. This is the Calvinist "norm". The hyper-Calvinists, who also hold some differeing views amongst them, are far fewer in number and the ones who believe evangelism is unnecessary. Spurgeon, along with many other Calvinists, have declared hyper-Calvinists are not true Calvinists at all.

Too many Christians are being lumped under one banner that doesn't even fit the majority. Broadbrushing is doing no one a service.

[anime4christ]

Actually, they are. This is the point I've been trying to get across. The term "Calvinism" is a very broad term and no one definition fits all who call themselves Calvinists or who get labeled as Calvinists.

Some Calvinists are akin to the sort Spurgeon was. They take their doctrine to heart even though that doctrine isn't what you may think it is; isn't what other Calvinists hold to, or isn't what some think of when they think of Calvinism.

I'm not good at searching and can't locate it at the moment, but there is excellent documentation available showing the most evangelistic churches from England and in America during the time period examined were Calvinist churches. This is the Calvinist "norm". The hyper-Calvinists, who also hold some differeing views amongst them, are far fewer in number and the ones who believe evangelism is unnecessary. Spurgeon, along with many other Calvinists, have declared hyper-Calvinists are not true Calvinists at all.

Too many Christians are being lumped under one banner that doesn't even fit the majority. Broadbrushing is doing no one a service.

That is correct John. I don't care what people call them, but there are these people who just read the Bible and believe what it says. Some of the things that the Bible says is that God is sovereign; He predestines, calls, elects, regenerates, saves and salvation is not of us. He does all the work and He gets all the glory and we get the joy. The Bible also says that He sends us to preach the gospel, so we go and preach the gospel. It's that simple. I'm one of those people, and some call us Calvinists. Since I believe that God sends us to preach the gospel and I believe that God is like He is described in the Bible, I love Him and I am happy to go and preach. I have been more passionate about the gospel after I started believing that God does all the saving than before, because along with that, I came to believe all the rest that the Bible says about God. Before that, when I was believing in man's choice - which is never mentioned in the parts of scripture that outline how salvation is accomplished - things didn't fit together so well and I was a bit confused and more afraid to share the gospel.

[Covenanter]

The trouble with anticalvinists is that they make their own 'logical' deductions from their own limited understanding.

They do not realise that calvinists follow Scripture - Scripture says God is sovereign, & we accept that; Scripture commands evangelism, & we preach the Gospel.

[heartstrings]

That is correct John. I don't care what people call them, but there are these people who just read the Bible and believe what it says. Some of the things that the Bible says is that God is sovereign; He predestines, calls, elects, regenerates, saves and salvation is not of us. He does all the work and He gets all the glory and we get the joy. The Bible also says that He sends us to preach the gospel, so we go and preach the gospel. It's that simple. I'm one of those people, and some call us Calvinists. Since I believe that God sends us to preach the gospel and I believe that God is like He is described in the Bible, I love Him and I am happy to go and preach. I have been more passionate about the gospel after I started believing that God does all the saving than before, because along with that, I came to believe all the rest that the Bible says about God. Before that, when I was believing in man's choice - which is never mentioned in the parts of scripture that outline how salvation is accomplished - things didn't fit together so well and I was a bit confused and more afraid to share the gospel.

Proverbs 1:29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isaiah1:18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Deuteronomy 30:19: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Joshua 24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts.

John 1:12: But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

2 Timothy 1:12: ...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day.

Isaiah 53:6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

1 John 2:2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

Hebrews 2:9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.

1 Timothy 2:4: Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth.

Matthew 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT

John 5:39-40: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 7:51: Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Proverbs 1:24-26: Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 16:2 ...... think that he doeth God service.

Mathew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Proverbs 29:1: He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

[heartstrings]

The trouble with anticalvinists is that they make their own 'logical' deductions from their own limited understanding.

They do not realise that calvinists follow Scripture - Scripture says God is sovereign, & we accept that; Scripture commands evangelism, & we preach the Gospel.

Maybe Benny Hinn beleives he preaches the Gospel too. The last time I looked, he even has the plan of salvation on his webpage.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.