Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[John81]

Thanks, John. A few points to add...


Yes, you posted this verse:

Thou shalt not steal. - Exodus 20:15 (KJV)

You are right that it is clear. But then others posted the following verse, which is just as clear:

Thou shalt not kill. - Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

You then argued that with verse 13 it is ok to reinterpret it because of what scripture says elsewhere. It looks to me like what people are doing here is seeing whether the argument you yourself apply to verse 13 can also be applied to verse 15.


People have supplied verses of scripture which they are working through to see whether they do just that. You say those verses don't. Fair enough. So now it would be helpful for you or HappyChristian or whoever else to go through those scriptures in detail and show why they don't say what people are claiming they are saying. You say that HappyChristian has already done this but if you look at her post you will see she did not actually show how the scripture in question supported her claims about it. That's why I call her points assertions and not explanations.


I imagine that people on both sides of the discussion would agree with that. I'll bow to your greater wisdom on this and just say that it doesn't look like other people here are trying to ignore context or the total Word of God. On the contrary, rancher824 and a few others have made reference to scripture from many different books and examined said scriptures in detail. It looks like they are trying to pay heed to both (whether or not they are reaching the right conclusions).



This is fine as an assertion. Now if someone who knows less than you decides to test your assertion by examining scripture for themselves and they naturally ask questions of the claim and consider it alongside other claims, are they 'attempting to justify sin' by so doing? You seem to be saying they are.

I claim no "greater wisdom". Any wisdom I do have comes from God and certainly is not of myself. Fundamental Bible teaching is that clear commands can't be overriden. This holds true for the lie issue, homosexuality, women preachers, stealing, etc. Christ commands we go and sin no more. There is no context of go and sin no more unless you find yourself in certain situations and then we won't call this or that sin a sin this time.

In the OT laws there is a long list of rules regarding those who have been killed in various manners and God lays out the rules concerning cases where a person is killed by accident, etc. This is not using Scripture to change another verse but pointing out where God has clarified a particular point and established it as part of His law.

[Crushmaster]

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) - "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, {10} Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

(Revelation 21:8) - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

(Hebrews 13:8) - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

God calls ALL thieves evil, and He calls ALL liars evil. He makes no distinction as to maybe "why" they did what they did, or under what circumstances, or who they did it against; He declares all unrighteous.

Furthermore, killing=/=murder. Keep in mind that the King James was translated in 1769 - at least the translation the vast majority use - at language has changed somewhat over that time. You can look at the Hebrew and see that it clearly means "murder", not merely kill. See Strong's Dictionary on the word:
"H7523
רצח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)."

God condemns murder. He commands His sons on a number of occasions to kill. And, not just in war - He institutes the death penalty while speaking to Noah.

God CANNOT both hate and abominate something and also condone it, at least under "some" circumstances. It does not add up.

I have nothing more to say.
God bless,
Joel.

[John81]

Rick good point about the Nazi thing....

I would like to know if any of those who disagree with my viewpoint (not that it matters haha) have ever been in active wartime military duty? I mean, it sounds all well and good to say we should never lie, and under normal circumstances this is true.

But we can study the Bible and find lots of "weird" things that happened during wartime! Study God's character during wartime, and even during the prophets. He made alot of "exceptions"...and He can! He's allowed.

There were times he had the prophets do unusual things...which one, was it Isaiah??? Who had to lay there naked or something like that? That's immodest. And then he had Hosea marry a harlot. God can change the rules when He wants to.

Again, I"m not saying we would ever have to find a situation where its "ok to lie" in our lifetimes...but I don't think God expects a Christian CIA guy to tell the enemy where the USA secrets are...etc. There are a few times when maybe lying isn't really lying....but I will say that is not an excuse for US to say its "okay" to lie. I'm simply pointing out not EVERY SINGLE lie, is necessarily a sin.

Suzy I always value your view in these threads.

The Nazi point actually isn't that good. There are many stories out there where Christians didn't resort to trying to help God by sinning "for a good reason" and the Lord honoured their faith and protected them and others. We serve a God who is capable of blinding the eyes of His enemies so they don't see what's right there; who can confuse the enemy at will; who can cause the enemy to scatter for no apparant reason, etc.

It's in times of serious trials and tests where we discover just how strong our faith in God really is. Just how far are we willing to trust God? Will we refuse to deny Christ with the blade at our throat? Will we refuse to sin and trust God to care for our loved one? Will we truly let our light shine before men that God may be glorified or will we give into the temptation to try something on our own?

As Jerry has pointed out, there is a vast difference between God directly telling someone in the OT to do somethng particular and how Scripture says we are to live our lives. Some of the things a few were told to do in the OT were as you say but they were very specific and for that specific person and time and were specifically used of God to set forth a lesson the people at the time clearly understood.

As we've discussed here before, if a person can't do a particular jOB without sinning then they should not be in that jOB. That is just as true for the woman working in the diner, the man working construction or someone working in the military or CIA.

Will we follow God or man? Will we lay up our treasures in heaven or here on earth?

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

[Alimantado]

Thanks again, John.

I claim no "greater wisdom". Any wisdom I do have comes from God and certainly is not of myself.

What I meant by greater wisdom is that you are an older and wiser Christian than me. If you're saying that the Bible doesn't entertain the idea that people can grow in Christ and gain a greater understanding of God's Word etc etc then fine, but then even that argument is an attempt to pass on knowledge to me!

In the OT laws there is a long list of rules regarding those who have been killed in various manners and God lays out the rules concerning cases where a person is killed by accident, etc. This is not using Scripture to change another verse but pointing out where God has clarified a particular point and established it as part of His law.

Fair enough but I'll say again that you have not specifically pointed out where and nor have you visited the verses cited by others to show how they are interpreting them wrong. All I'm saying is it would be helpful for the discussion if someone did do that (not necessarily you--I can make no demands on your time).

With regard to 'using scripture to change another verse', I didn't actually mean that when I said 'reinterpret', so am happy (with apologies) to rephrase:

"You then argued that with verse 13 it is ok to understand 'kill' as actually meaning 'murder' because of what scripture says elsewhere. It looks to me like what people are doing here is seeing whether the argument you yourself apply to verse 13 can also be applied to verse 15."

[Anon]

Let's look at the situations....

Rahab was NEVER in God's word said she was wrong for deceiving God's enemies. She was nothing but blessed for this deceit as it was the "works" that showed forth of her "faith". It was the "Right kind of lie" if you want to say it like that (most here won't haha). We're talking about being against God's enemies here.

On the other hand, JacOB's deceit is well known to have been wrong, and he is called the "deceiver" and it brought much sorrow upon him in consequence. This was the type of lie (among almost every other type) that is sinful and condemned in Scripture.

Cain was, of course, condemned for killing his brother. However in times of war, killing was fine, because again it was against God's enemies.

Hosea was a preacher who had an unclean wife....he wasn't sinning! But anyone else who marries someone like that would be said, and rightfully so, that they would be disqualified from the ministry for not ruling his house well. I'm saying its perfectly fine for God to make a rule, and then make an exception.

I guess we could bring up Jephthah's daughter here....but then half of us would believe that when Jephthah said "burnt offering" he meant it...and the other half would say "Wellll he didn't really mean "burnt" because God wouldn't make him do that...." even though the Bible clearly says "He did with her as he vowed." haha. But hey that would be killing... as a matter of fact, God asked Abraham to almost kill Isaac...he didn't...but...he very well could have!

I guess my point is not really to say "Hey I'm allowed to lie." More, I'm defending Rahab's "honor" if you please, as well as the honor of those who maybe work in the CIA or other military operations and keep our country safe, who have to practice wartime deceit.

I can totally appreciate those who disagree with me...not a big deal. :-)

[John81]

Thanks again, John.



What I meant by greater wisdom is that you are an older and wiser Christian than me. If you're saying that the Bible doesn't entertain the idea that people can grow in Christ and gain a greater understanding of God's Word etc etc then fine, but then even that argument is an attempt to pass on knowledge to me!



Fair enough but I'll say again that you have not specifically pointed out where and nor have you visited the verses cited by others to show how they are interpreting them wrong. All I'm saying is it would be helpful for the discussion if someone did do that (not necessarily you--I can make no demands on your time).

With regard to 'using scripture to change another verse', I didn't actually mean that when I said 'reinterpret', so am happy (with apologies) to rephrase:

"You then argued that with verse 13 it is ok to understand 'kill' as actually meaning 'murder' because of what scripture says elsewhere. It looks to me like what people are doing here is seeing whether the argument you yourself apply to verse 13 can also be applied to verse 15."

Thank you for clarifying. Certainly the Lord has blessed me with "greater wisdom" now than what I had back in 1981 when I first came to Christ. We are told in James to pray for wisdom and this is something I have done many times. That said, the "wisdom" I do have is from God and not from my own head or some university degree. Without the Holy Ghost I would be as lost in the Scripture as I once was.

The word "kill" is a broad term which encompasses everything from outright killing someone because you didn't like them to killing someone who jumps out in front of your car as you drive down the road.

I apologize for not putting forth the specific verses. I have very little room here so it's time consuming and difficult to try and find the verses and I don't want to guide someone to one book when I should have said another. The laws I was speaking of are in one of the books of Moses and in the book of Joshua we see where God guided them to set up the cities of refuge so those who killed by accident could have a safe place to stay until the judges could rule.

Clear verses have been posted which address the sin of telling a lie. We are told not to lie, that God considers lying to be an abomination and that Satan is the father of lies. No stories of how someone told a lie and yet God still blessed them or still used them changes the clear command of God. God has blessed and used murderers, adulterers, and other sinners but this does not commend their sins or make their sins okay.

In the case of killing it's God Himself who clarifies what this means and sets forth the law for such Himself. In the case of telling lies, God says all lies are sin and sets forth no commands that exempt certain lies.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are His delight." Proverbs 12:22

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent," Proverbs 6:16,17

[Anon]

Technically, for a moment, we could say those "lying lips" (Rahabs) and "hands that shed innocent blood" (killing pregnant women in battle, for instance...innocent to our eyes yet wicked in God's) would be the same principle of a general law but exceptions allowed if God says so.

[John81]

Let's look at the situations....

Rahab was NEVER in God's word said she was wrong for deceiving God's enemies. She was nothing but blessed for this deceit as it was the "works" that showed forth of her "faith". It was the "Right kind of lie" if you want to say it like that (most here won't haha). We're talking about being against God's enemies here.

On the other hand, JacOB's deceit is well known to have been wrong, and he is called the "deceiver" and it brought much sorrow upon him in consequence. This was the type of lie (among almost every other type) that is sinful and condemned in Scripture.

Cain was, of course, condemned for killing his brother. However in times of war, killing was fine, because again it was against God's enemies.

Hosea was a preacher who had an unclean wife....he wasn't sinning! But anyone else who marries someone like that would be said, and rightfully so, that they would be disqualified from the ministry for not ruling his house well. I'm saying its perfectly fine for God to make a rule, and then make an exception.

I guess we could bring up Jephthah's daughter here....but then half of us would believe that when Jephthah said "burnt offering" he meant it...and the other half would say "Wellll he didn't really mean "burnt" because God wouldn't make him do that...." even though the Bible clearly says "He did with her as he vowed." haha. But hey that would be killing... as a matter of fact, God asked Abraham to almost kill Isaac...he didn't...but...he very well could have!

I guess my point is not really to say "Hey I'm allowed to lie." More, I'm defending Rahab's "honor" if you please, as well as the honor of those who maybe work in the CIA or other military operations and keep our country safe, who have to practice wartime deceit.

I can totally appreciate those who disagree with me...not a big deal. :-)

Howdy Suzy!

Some of this has already been covered because it only concerns that which Lord directly commanded for a specific person and purpose and does not apply to us in that manner.

Rahab was not Christian or a Jew. We can't expect that prior to the coming of the Hebrews that she really knew God but it's clear God was drawing her to Him. It should come as no surprise at all that either an unbeliever or a new believer would sin even in the course of trying to do what they thought was right. Rahab was rewarded for her faith, not that she sinned while protecting the Hebrews. Rahab didn't have to lie in order for God to protect the Hebrews any more than JacOB or his mom had to lie in order for JacOB to become the head of his family.

There are many instances where folks sin in Scripture and the Lord doesn't specifically make condemning mention of it in Scripture. Of course, God doesn't need to because the rest of Scripture is there for us to learn from.

All that said, when it comes to us (Christians) we are called to an even higher standard than were the Hebrews. We have the entire Word of God and we are commanded to live in full accord to His Word. Christ says if we love Him we will keep His commands. This we are to do by allowing Christ and His Spirit to change us from within. Not only are we to keep His commands outwardly, we are to keep His commands inwardly so that we truly do take on the nature of Christ so we may say with Paul that to live is Christ.

[John81]

Technically, for a moment, we could say those "lying lips" (Rahabs) and "hands that shed innocent blood" (killing pregnant women in battle, for instance...innocent to our eyes yet wicked in God's) would be the same principle of a general law but exceptions allowed if God says so.

Suzy you are wonderful!

It was either last Sunday or the Sunday before that our pastor went over the issue that if we ever have to say "technically" in order to excuse a sin then we are indeed attempting to excuse sin.

God works around our sin nature. He worked through Samson even though he dishonoured his parents, slept around and didn't follow God rightly at all. That doesn't mean any of the sins he committed were okay or an exception at that time.

When the Hebrews were commanded to kill every man, woman and child they were dealing out the judgement of God. God Himself had declared all of them to be sentenced to death so it can't rightly be said that innocent blood was shed.

[Anon]

I just want to know where it says in the Bible that Rahab sinned. :-)

[John81]

I just want to know where it says in the Bible that Rahab sinned. :-)

Scripture has been posted which says:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are His delight." Proverbs 12:22

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent," Proverbs 6:16,17

These verses alone make it clear that ANYONE who lies is sinning. This includes Rahab.

[Anon]

I could easily also say that anyone killed under the age of accountability in war is "innocent blood"....

BUT God said it was okay. God also said Rahab was okay.

[John81]

I could easily also say that anyone killed under the age of accountability in war is "innocent blood"....

BUT God said it was okay. God also said Rahab was okay.

Not biblically. God had declared that all those He ordered the Hebrews to kill had been judged by Him and the punishment was death. The Hebrews shed no innocent blood when they carried out the Gods execution upon those particular people.

God declares that you and I are okay too! However that doesn't mean he says our sin is okay. I'm assuming you have sinned in your life since Scripture says we are all sinners, and I know I have sinned. We are blessed and saved in spite of our sins, as was Rahab, by the mercy and grace of God.

There are many cases of individuals sinning in Scripture where God didn't specifically condemn that sin in the pages of Scripture yet we have the rest of Scripture to tell us what is and isn't sin. God didn't have to tell us that each person who committed adultery, committed murder or had sex with those not their spouse were sinning any more than He needed to do so in the case of Rahab.

[Annie]

I think the key is wartime...you end up doing alot of things in a time of war that you would and should never do to your neighbor.

I think you've hit on a key point here, Kita. I am pretty sure that we'd all agree that in a wartime scenario, it is assumed by all parties that every side will engage in activities that they all would acknowledge are unethical and/or morally wrong in any other scenario (like injuring/killing people in cold blood, spying and other forms of deceit/trickery, including everything from deceptive/decoy strategic maneuvers, to leaking false information to enemy spies, to lying about "which way they went," to hiding soldiers and/or fugitives, etc.). As a matter of fact, to "tell the truth" in these situations is considered treason...a betrayal of one's country. In wartime, one Christian could kill another Christian without being guilty of disOBeying the command to "love one another," because the context is impersonal. I tend to think that what the midwives and Rahab did fall into this category. The deceit they employed was not for personal gain or motivated by selfishness at all. It was not wicked; as a matter of fact, they were blessed specifically for their actions, because it was through these actions that God's people were preserved. Rahab was clearly in a wartime scenario. Similarly, in the case of the Hebrew midwives, we're talking about one people group pitted against another people group...not people lying just for the sake of lying ("a lying tongue"), or simply getting themselves out of trouble, or falsely accusing someone ("bearing false witness against thy neighbor"), or deceiving a brother in Christ ("lie not to one another, seeing ye have put off the old man with his deeds").

The ten Booms engaged in the same kind of deceit by concealing Jews from the government. Harriet Tubman and others that helped along the Underground Railroad were equally deceptive. I think there is a difference between these activities and the "lying tongue" that the Bible condemns. But that's just my opinion.

[Anon]

The Jewish midwives is another VERY good example...thank you.