The KJV Issue ? Faith Vs. Facts

[AVBunyan]

As you have noticed there are always discussion surrounding the KJV vs. the newer versions. I

[Evelyn207]

I agree, it comes down to faith.

It amazes me that none of the "new versions" seem to want to compare themselves with the other "new versions", only with the KJV.
The same with taking God's name in vain - you never hear Allah used as a cuss word, never hear anyone use Buddha or Muhammud (SP?)
as a cuss word. That pretty much tells you in itself that they are false gods.

[Jerry]

[quote]
I take a King James Bible and I look at how it describes itself. I look at the internal evidence of what the book says about itself and I, by faith, believe it.
[/quote]

Maybe I am looking at this slightly different than you... I understand that we are not to walk by sight, but by faith - which is taking God at His Word.

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God - the inspired, inerrant, preserved Word of God. That is what I believe by faith. But faith alone doesn't tell me which version He preserved.

I believe that all the evidence points to the King James Bible as that preserved, inerrant, inspired Word of God. The evidence backs up my faith - or to put it another way, I looked at the evidence through the filter of the Word of God, and realized which version lined up with what the Bible said about itself.

Hopefully that makes sense. I believe by faith that the Lord would preserve His Word and that I can have it in my hand today. But it took a look at the evidence to show me which was that preserved Word - otherwise I would still be reading the counterfeits.

Maybe someone else can figure out what I am trying to say and put it a little better... :saint

[AVBunyan]

[quote="Jerry"]
I believe that all the evidence points to the King James Bible as that preserved, inerrant, inspired Word of God. The evidence backs up my faith - or to put it another way, I looked at the evidence through the filter of the Word of God, and realized which version lined up with what the Bible said about itself.

Hopefully that makes sense. I believe by faith that the Lord would preserve His Word and that I can have it in my hand today. But it took a look at the evidence to show me which was that preserved Word - otherwise I would still be reading the counterfeits.

Maybe someone else can figure out what I am trying to say and put it a little better... :saint
[/quote]

Nice post brother - I see what you are trying to say. I guess I was trying to say that it is easy to prove that the newer versions are corrupt and from the wicked one. But how can we prove "factually" other than the reasons I showed that the KJV is it? We can look at the work it has done in believers, the work it has done in nations, ect. We can see that it upholds all the doctrines of faith more accurately than the newer ones do. But to prove it by facts is more difficult.

The true saint walks by faith and and not by sight - has the witness of the Spirit - something that is hard to explain to the lost and sceptical. We Bible-believers have our "proof" but these "proves" don't hold water to skeptics and do we really care? We know it is the word of God - we know it has power and works. But to prove that with [b]facts[/b] is tough - especially when it comes to manuscript evidence.

We tell folks that the originals are gone and that who knows about all that anyway really. But what we do know is that by faith based upon what the Bible says about itself we have the pure word of God in our hands. Why? Because we beleive what we have in our hands and they don't!

Talking about rambling and muddying up the stream - look at what I just did :shock:

Ok, I'll keep quiet until I can make more sense. :oops:

God bless :mrgreen:

[Jerry]

[quote]
But what we do know is that by faith based upon what the Bible says about itself we have the pure word of God in our hands. Why? [b]Because we beleive what we have in our hands and they don't![/b]
[/quote]

That's the whole crux of the matter! By believing in what my Bible said, I was led to fully embrace the King James Bible as the Holy Spirit guided me in my studying and searching.

[quote]
Ok, I'll keep quiet until I can make more sense.
[/quote]

Made sense to me - but then again, it is 4:43 am where I am! :mrgreen:

[Ricky]

I have to say that all the "discrepencies" that the promoters of newer versions TRY to point out are worthy of study, if not for any other reason, to prove just how WRONG their presumptions ARE.

Of course one must look through the eyes of faith to see the Truth of the whole matter, and of course, taking GOD at His Word!

Actually it is pretty simple, one must consider whetehr or not this "new" introduction is either man's doctrine, or God's?

When it promotes a man's reasoning, the proof is in the pudding, that is the end result: does it glorify God or the works of men?

The dead give-away is alwys that they MUST impose "errors" wiht our King James Bible to try and "prove" anything.

If the "Message" is the only determining factor to whether a "version " is acceptable, then everytime one would present the Gospel that would be just another version! That's sort of silly.

We must have the "landmark" to go by, that which we all can relate as the Truth of God's Word, that is the King James 1611, Authorized Version, there are no others for the English speaking people. Do I only accept this as a matter of faith NO! The FACTS always prove the faith!!!!!!

Remember, faith has "SUBSTANCE" and the "EVIDENCE" of things not seen, it is the FACT that the things of the Spirit are only seen through spiritual eyes of faith, they are discerned that way, and the natural/ historian/ one who accepts secualr reasoning over elements of the matters of faith and the guidance of the leadings and prompting of the Holy Ghost, Our Comforter, cannot see "it" the way we do; in other words, they are even most likely to simply be religious, and yes, LOST!

What I mean is they have received things of faith as a man, not as a child as Jesus/ the Author and Finisher of our Faith, has laid it out.

The old cliche': "Faith is the key!" but that faith depends solely upon the facts of having the express image of Christ in His Holy Word, not just another facsimily, or likeness.

Our Bible is NOT limited to the "Message" of ther Gospel, even though it is first and foremost, but the child of God must be instructed how to be a "living sacrifice" for the Lord.

The truth is, that if satan can allow a few to be saved, but become a stumblingblock that will eventually cause multitudes to go to hell, (for their not being "REAL" Christians), then he has gained more than he actually lost!

A "REAL" Christian is one who IS a LIVING SACRIFICE, one who solely relies on the leading of the Holy Ghost and according to the Bible for all matters of life, so how can anyone rely on something that is a discrepency to Truth and also short of ALL the facts?

The answer is they can't, and satan knows that, subtle ain't he? :mad:

Hope this all made sense, it did to me as I was posting it! :|

[Trotter]

I do not have a problem with anyone accepting the KJV in faith. Never have, never will. The only problem is that I am not allowed the same freedom.

I do believe that the King James is the word of God. But I also believe that other bibles are the word of God. Not all, mind you (visions of the NWT and such come to mind). I go on a case by case basis, I guess.

So, why am I not allowed the same freedom as everyone else?

I do readily admit that I debate this topic quite often elsewhere (the doctrine involved, not the faith involved), and am not going to do so here. But I have heard all the reasons for both sides, and it comes down to exactly what has been stated already: FAITH. No one can prove anything one way or another. Oh, you can create doubt in either direction, and build a case on assumptions in either direction. But it still bils down to faith.

I guess my main problem is that some take their faith and attempt to force it upon others. If you believe I'm in error, fine; discuss it with me, but don't rant, rail, or insult me. If I believe you are in error, OK; I'll discuss it with you, but I won't attack you for it.

[PreachIt]

Since you brought it up,

see how similar the NWT is to other 'versions',



Let's Compare Bibles

In this section, we have reprinted our Let's Compare Bibles tract. Here you will see several good examples of how modern Bible versions are attacking God's word. We have selected eight modern translations for evaluation. The translations evaluated are as follows:


NIV....... New International Version

NASB... New American Standard Bible

NRSV... New Revised Standard Version

REB...... Revised English Bible

LB......... Living Bible

NWT..... New World Translation

NAB ..... New American Bible

NKJV.... New King James Version


Although we have limited this study to eight new translations, you will find many of these attacks manifested in ANY new translation. You will find that some of the most important doctrines of the Bible are being attacked in the new versions. Whether you have a Living Bible, a New Century Version, a Revised Standard Version, or any of the other perversions of Scripture, you are going to see the Devil hard at work on the revision committees of the new translations. The King James reading will appear first, followed by a brief comment, and then the perverted readings of the modern perversions.


Psalm 12:6-7

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


The above promise from the King James Bible tells us that God intends to preserve His WORDS forever. Notice how the new versions destroy this promise by making you think the context is God's PEOPLE rather than His WORDS:


NIV....... you will keep us safe

NASB... Thou wilt preserve him

NRSV... You, O Lord, will protect us

REB...... you are our protector

LB......... you will forever preserve your own

NAB...... You, O Lord, will keep us


Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


Notice how some new versions attack the Virgin Birth of Christ by robbing Mary of her virginity. As anyone well knows, a young woman or a maiden is NOT necessarily a virgin:


NRSV... young woman

REB...... young woman

NWT..... maiden


Luke 2:33

And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.


Here the new versions attack the Virgin Birth by telling us that Joseph was Christ's father:


NIV....... The child's father

NASB... His father

NRSV... the child's father

REB...... The child's father

NWT..... its father

NAB...... the child's father


I Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Notice how the King James is very clear in telling us WHO was manifest in the flesh: GOD was manifest in the flesh. Now watch the new perversions throw God clear out of the verse:


NIV....... He appeared in a body

NASB... He who was revealed in the flesh

NRSV... He was revealed in flesh

REB...... He was manifested in the flesh

LB......... who came to earth as a man

NWT..... He was made manifest in the flesh

NAB...... He was manifested in the flesh


Micah 5:2

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


This is a prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the verse tells us that He had no beginning. As the Second Member of the Trinity, He is ETERNAL, or from everlasting, but not in most modern translations:


NIV....... from ancient times

NRSV... from ancient days

REB..... in ancient times

NWT.... from the days of time indefinite

NAB..... from ancient times (vs. 1)


Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Revelation 22:16 tells us that Jesus Christ is the "Morning Star". The King James Bible never gives this title to anyone else. However, in some new versions, Jesus Christ and Satan are the same, because some versions have taken the liberty to call Satan the "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12. Although some versions do not go so far as to call Satan the "morning star," they still throw out the name "Lucifer".


NIV....... morning star

NASB... star of the morning

NRSV... Day Star

REB...... Bright morning star

NWT..... you shining one

NAB...... morning star


Daniel 3:25

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


This is an excellent Old Testament verse which shows that Jesus Christ existed long before He was born in Bethlehem. Naturally, the new versions will pervert it with pagan foolishness:


NIV....... a son of the gods

NASB... a son of the gods

NRSV... a god

REB..... a god

LB........ a god

NWT.... a son of the gods

NAB..... a son of God (vs. 92)


Colossians 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Satan hates the Atoning Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, so we shouldn't be surprised to find the blood missing in modern translations:


NIV....... redemption, the forgiveness of sins

NASB... redemption, the forgiveness of sins

NRSV... redemption, the forgiveness of sins

REB..... our release is secured and our sins are forgiven

NWT.... we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of sins

NAB...... redemption, the forgiveness of our sins


Romans 14:10-12

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


If you'll read the above verses carefully, you will notice how it magnifies Jesus Christ. According to verse 10, we will stand before the Judgment Seat of CHRIST, and verse 12 says that when we do we will give account to GOD. When we stand before Jesus Christ we will be standing before God--an excellent text on the Deity of Christ. Now watch as the new versions throw Jesus Christ clear out of the passage by replacing the word "Christ" in verse 10 with "God:"


NIV....... God's judgment seat

NASB... Judgment seat of God

NRSV... judgment seat of God

REB...... God's tribunal

LB......... Judgment Seat of God

NWT..... judgment seat of God

NAB...... judgment seat of God


Acts 8:37

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


This verse is very important because it places a definite condition upon water baptism: one must first BELIEVE ON CHRIST. Many modern versions throw the entire verse out of the Bible:


NIV....... entire verse missing

NRSV... entire verse missing

REB...... entire verse missing

NWT..... entire verse missing

NAB...... omits entire verse, but re-numbers the verses so you won't miss it


II Corinthians 2:17

For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


You can imagine how this verse must be a thorn in the flesh to the modern translators who are busy CORRUPTING the word of God day and night. So, do they repent of their sins and get right with God? Of course not:


NIV....... peddle

NASB... peddling

NRSV... peddlers

REB...... adulterating the word of God for profit

LB......... hucksters

NWT..... peddlers

NAB...... trade on the word of God

NKJV.... peddling


II Timothy 2:15

Studyto shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


This is the one command in the New Testament to "study" and "rightly divide" God's word, and the Devil does NOT appreciate it:


NIV....... Do your best...correctly handles

NASB... Be diligent...handling accurately

NRSV... Do your best...rightly explaining

REB...... Try hard...keep strictly to the true gospel

LB......... Work hard...Know what his word says and means

NWT..... Do your utmost...handling the word of truth aright

NAB...... Try hard...following a straight course inpreaching the truth

NKJV.... Be diligent...rightly dividing


I Timothy 6:20

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


Many lies are being propagated today in the name of "science" (evolution for example), but I Timothy 6:20 has been warning us about it all along - except in the new perversions:


NIV....... knowledge

NASB... knowledge

NRSV... knowledge

REB...... knowledge

LB......... knowledge

NWT..... knowledge

NAB...... knowledge

NKJV.... knowledge

Back to the TABLE OF CONTENTS


The New King James Version

We will now give some special attention to one of the deadliest translations on the market--the New King James Version, first published in 1979. It is a deadly version because it's editors have succeeded in deceiving the body of Christ on two main points: (1) That it's a King James Bible (which is a lie), and (2) that it's based on the Textus Receptus (which is only a partial truth). The following information should be helpful when dealing with Christians who have been swindled by the Laodicean lovers of filthy lucre:

1. The text of the NKJV is copyrighted by Thomas Nelson Publishers, while there is no copyright today on the text of the KJV. If your KJV has maps or notes, then it may have a copyright, but the text itself does not.

2. There's nothing "new" about the NKJV logo. It is a "666" symbol of the pagan trinity which was used in the ancient Egyptian mysteries. It was also used by satanist Aleister Crowley around the turn of this century. The symbol can be seen on the New King James Bible, on certain rock albums (like Led Zepplin's), or you can see it on the cover of such New Age books as The Aquarian Conspiracy. (See Riplinger's tract on the NKJV.)

3. It is estimated that the NKJV makes over 100,000 translation changes, which comes to over eighty changes per page and about three changes per verse! A great number of these changes bring the NKJV in line with the readings of such Alexandrian perversions as the NIV and the RSV. Where changes are not made in the text, subtle footnotes often give credence to the Westcott and Hort Greek Text.

4. While passing off as being true to the Textus Receptus, the NKJV IGNORES the Receptus over 1,200 times.

5. In the NKJV, there are 22 omissions of "hell", 23 omissions of "blood", 44 omissions of "repent", 50 omissions of "heaven", 51 omissions of "God", and 66 omissions of "Lord". The terms "devils", "damnation", "JEHOVAH", and "new testament" are completely omitted.

6. The NKJV demotes the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 1:3, the KJV says that all things were made "by" Jesus Christ, but in the NKJV, all things were just made "through" Him. The word "Servant" replaces "Son" in Acts 3:13 and 3:26. "Servant" replaces "child" in Acts 4:27 and 4:30. The word "Jesus" is omitted from Mark 2:15, Hebrews 4:8, and Acts 7:45.

7. The NKJV confuses people about salvation. In Hebrews 10:14 it replaces "are sanctified" with "are being sanctified", and it replaces "are saved" with "are being saved" in I Corinthians 1:18 and II Corinthians 2:15. The words "may believe" have been replaced with "may continue to believe" in I John 5:13. The old straight and "narrow" way of Matthew 7:14 has become the "difficult" way in the NKJV.

8. In II Corinthians 10:5 the KJV reads "casting down imaginations", but the NKJV reads "casting down arguments". The word "thought", which occurs later in the verse, matches "imaginations", not "arguments". This change weakens the verse.

9. The KJV tells us to reject a "heretick" after the second admonition in Titus 3:10. The NKJV tells us to reject a "divisive man". How nice! Now the Alexandrians and Ecumenicals have justification for rejecting anyone they wish to label as "divisive men".

10. According to the NKJV, no one would stoop so low as to "corrupt" God's word. No, they just "peddle" it (II Cor. 2:17). The reading matches the Alexandrian versions.

11. Since the NKJV has "changed the truth of God into a lie", it has also changed Romans 1:25 to read "exchanged the truth of God for the lie". This reading matches the readings of the new perversions, so how say ye it's a King James Bible?

12. The NKJV gives us no command to "study" God's word in II Timothy 2:15.

13. The word "science" is replaced with "knowledge" in I Timothy 6:20, although "science" has occurred in every edition of the KJV since 1611! How say ye it's a King James Bible?

14. The Jews "require" a sign, according to I Corinthians 1:22 (and according to Jesus Christ - John 4:48), but the NKJV says they only "request" a sign. They didn't "request" one when signs first appeared in Exodus 4, and there are numerous places throughout the Bible where God gives Israel signs when they haven't requested anything (Exo. 4, Exo. 31:13, Num. 26:10, I Sam. 2:34, Isa. 7:10-14, Luke 2:12, etc). They "require" a sign, because signs are a part of their national heritage.

15. The King James reading in II Corinthians 5:17 says that if any man is in Christ he is a new "creature", which matches the words of Christ in Mark 16:15. The cross reference is destroyed in the NKJV, which uses the word "creation."

16. As a final note, we'd like to point out how the NKJV is very inconsistent in it's attempt to update the language of the KJV. The preface to the NKJV states that previous "revisions" of the KJV have "sought to keep abreast of changes in English speech", and also that they too are taking a "further step toward this objective". However, when taking a closer look at the language of the NKJV, we find that oftentimes they are stepping BACKWARDS! Please note a few examples of how well the NKJV has "kept abreast of the changes in the English language":

http://www.av1611.org/kjv/fight.html#fight10

[Trotter]

Sorry, Craig. I don't bother with 'cut-and-paste' posts.

I do see your point, though.

The point I was making about the NWT is that the JW have set it up to back their cult's doctrine. For example, John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was a god." Notice the "a" added in? It lines up with their dogma.

As for the similarities between the NWT and other modern versions, well, that's something that you can worry about, 'cause I ain't. Every lie has a grain of truth in it...

[PreachIt]

so if I had all that info in my head, and typed it out, you would have bothered with it?

ThanX fer that, I'll no longer bother with you :roll:

[PappaBear]

The NWT Jehovah's Witness' bible version follows the modern versions in SO MANY places is the point made. And these places DO affect doctrinal values and distinctions. Why would a people who so hate the Lordship and Deity of Jesus Christ that they are willing to add the "a" in John 1:1 identify themselves more with what some think to be "better translations"? That is the question you should ask yourself.

I think it is VERY significant that the changes made by the Jehovah's Witnesses are so in line with the modern versions. It shows that the doctrinal intents are similar. And when you ignore those differences, claiming only a "grain" of truth in such arguments, you are only hiding your head in the sand wishing that it would go away.

The truth is the modern versions water down the historic fundamental doctrines of the Deity of Christ, the Person and work of Christ, repentance, the blood, and the Biblical attestations to the inspiration, preservation and authority of the scriptures themselves.

I agree that faith is the key factor in believing what IS the word of God. But facts, that are true facts, will coroborate faith in what is right. On the other hand, facts will contradict misplaced faith and cause the misguided "faithful" to ignore those facts or discount them. In this, we see that the Modern Version faithful prefer to ignore having their versions lined up together to show the consistency of their changes with the same changes made by unorthodox cults.

*hat tip )

[Anti-Alexandrian]

[quote]
The point I was making about the NWT is that the JW have set it up to back their cult's doctrine. For example, John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was a god." Notice the "a" added in? It lines up with their dogma.
[/quote] Prehaps.But,what are you going to do with John 1:18 in the NAS{B}??It matches the NWT!!! You know why??? Because the mss they both come from have the Arian rendering of John 1:18(Galatians 5:9);that is the "oldest and best" @ their worse!!(Matt 7:20)

[Ricky]

Trotter,

[quote]
I guess my main problem is that some take their faith and attempt to force it upon others. If you believe I'm in error, fine; discuss it with me, but don't rant, rail, or insult me. If I believe you are in error, OK; I'll discuss it with you, but I won't attack you for it.
[/quote]

Just for the sake of logic and dealing with faith and the facts, do you have any problem with God "forcing" His faith upon you?

[Trotter]

[quote]
[b]Just for the sake of logic and dealing with faith and the facts, do you have any problem with God "forcing" His faith upon you?[/b]
[/quote]

No, Ricky. And I am offended by what you are hinting at.

All I ask is to be allowed the same freedom and liberty that you have, and that to choose.

[Jerry]

[quote]
All I ask is to be allowed the same freedom and liberty that you have, and that to choose.
[/quote]

Trotter, what it comes down to is: we can't believe that God would guide those of us who diligently prayed, searched, and thoroughly studied out the issue to one solid conclusion (KJVonly - ie. the KJV is God's preserved, inerrant Word today), and then would guide some other Christians to the exact opposite position. It is the same God - either we are totally out to lunch and decieving ourselves in this matter, or you have. I don't mean that as an insult, but as a statement of fact. Two contrary conclusions cannot both be God-led positions of truth!

The more I keep studying out, praying, and comparing the evidence, the more my conclusion is reinforced. Mine is not a position of doubt as to what the Word of God is, but one of complete and utter faith. I have the authoritative, inerrant, inspired, preserved Word of God today in my hands - not in a multitude of versions and manuscripts which I need to play God to determine which is which. My faith is not "Yea, hath God said", but "Thou shalt keep them oh Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever" and "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away." We do have a more sure word of prophecy, not a hope-so, guess-so one.