Advanced Revelation

[Guest Guest]

Kevin, there is more proof but I am just learning at this and I'm not sure where it is. Someone more experienced than me could explain because it has been explained to me but the Jeremiah one is so far the only one I've personally looked into yet.

Katy-Anne

[kevinmiller]

We can't go anywhere here then, if you can't present an argument. lol

[Will]

I have written an article about the subject from my understanding, but decided to wait on moderator approval to post it. I have PM'd a mod about it though so if they are ok with it I'll post it for you.

Meanwhile, if anyone else has more examples of advanced revelation, you should post them!

Katy-Anne

Okay! I'm looking forward to discussing this, with civility and grace(and this is to everybody). We should be slow to speak on this matter, and make sure that we are thinking and understanding everything properly. If you get permission to post it Katy-Anne, I'll likely break it down into sections first, and make sure I clarify everything that you're saying so we don't end up speaking past eachother.

I would also recommend that everybody approach posting in this thread with prayer first. Think about your post before you hit "submit." Remember that there are people on the other end of the computer who may take your words wrong. Let our communication be seasoned with grace and love from the Lord.

[Guest Guest]

Ok here is the article!

Here also is a link to my website on the KJB issues ONLY.

http://alabaster.KJBchurch.com/viewforum.php?f=22

Our Superior King James Bible

By Katy-Anne Wilson

I was seventeen years old when I began to look into the King James only debate. To be honest, I had grown up being told that all versions were the Word of God, and that King James only people were Pharisees and didn

[Will]

Let's look at the word "translate" in the Bible:

2 Samuel 3:10 To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over
Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The Bible itself proves that a translation can be better than the original. The first example shows the kingdom being translated from Saul to David...definitely an improvement!

The second translation is God translating us from the power of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son. That's a picture of salvation.

The third translation is when God took Enoch from this earth and took him up to Heaven, because he had the testimony of pleasing God. (section on translation written by Kathie Owen).

Clarification: So is it your position that each of these cases can be correlated to the translation of the Bible?

It was when I got to this point that I began to realize there were TWO different lots of people that called themselves King James Bible only people, but in reality, only one of those groups is truly King James Bible only. The other group are Textus Receptus only people. That means they believe the KJB is the best because it was translated from the TR, not because it is the precious KJB that God inspired. The true King James Bible only people are those that believe the KJB is pure, perfect and inspired, not because of the TR, but because it is the King James Bible.

Clarification: You believe that there are only two camps of KJV-Onlyists, one that is TR-Only and one that is truly KJV-Only?

I had to come to the conclusion that the King James Bible was pure, perfect and inspired because it is the KJB. I believe that God waited till 1611 to re-inspire the Bible because the English language was at the height of its purity then. God chose English because it is the most spoken language in the modern world. The Bible used to be in Greek and Hebrew because those were spoken the most. Don

[Guest Guest]

Will, your clarifications are correct on all points except me not being sure about this one:

Clarification: It is your stance that God inspired the same manuscript twice, and inspired the new words along with that re-inspiration?

But I think you have interpreted me right. I believe that God told Jeremiah to re-write the words, and then also added new words, just like it says in the Bible.

Lol I wish you could also ask some other people I know about this issue, they'd be able to tell you a WHOLE lot more!

Katy-Anne

[Will]

Will, your clarifications are correct on all points except me not being sure about this one:

But I think you have interpreted me right. I believe that God told Jeremiah to re-write the words, and then also added new words, just like it says in the Bible.

Lol I wish you could also ask some other people I know about this issue, they'd be able to tell you a WHOLE lot more!

Katy-Anne

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I'll probably deal with these each in separate posts, but we'll see how that goes. I need to run out for a bit, but I'll be back and posting this afternoon, and I look forward to more discussion then.

[Guest Guest]

Oh yeah! I won't be here all day today, my husband is taking me to Baby Depot at Burlington YAY!!! So I'm not ignoring people, I'll be back later.

Anyway I can't answer all questions probably but I'll sure try to answer the ones that I know anything about.

Katy-Anne

[Samer]

For your and Kathie's edification:

The Bible does not use the word translate in reference to rendering something into another language. It does, however, use the word "interpret" instead (see 1 Cor. 14). Since the King James Bible uses the word interpret instead of translate to refer to moving something between languages, these references to the word translate and translated are completely out of context, and their applications are completely incorrect. Even if the Bible did use the word "translate" to refer to moving between languages, to apply these few passages about people being translated to Heaven, where it simply means "moved," to declare advanced inspiration, is completely incorrect. Two words can have the same spelling and yet mean different things.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/translate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysemy Yes yes, Wikipedia...

WordNet
polysemy
noun
the ambiguity of an individual word or phrase that can be used (in different contexts) to express two or more different meanings [ant: monosemy]

Mmmm context!

And yes, I know if Vince were here, he could make better arguments for this advanced revelation thing...but they'd still be...well, wrong. :lol

[kevinmiller]

For your and Kathie's edification:

The Bible does not use the word translate in reference to rendering something into another language. It does, however, use the word "interpret" instead (see 1 Cor. 14). Since the King James Bible uses the word interpret instead of translate to refer to moving something between languages, these references to the word translate and translated are completely out of context, and their applications are completely incorrect. Even if the Bible did use the word "translate" to refer to moving between languages, to apply these few passages about people being translated to Heaven, where it simply means "moved," to declare advanced inspiration, is completely incorrect. Two words can have the same spelling and yet mean different things.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/translate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysemy Yes yes, Wikipedia...

WordNet
polysemy
noun
the ambiguity of an individual word or phrase that can be used (in different contexts) to express two or more different meanings [ant: monosemy]

Mmmm context!

:amen:

[Pastor Matt]

Kevin, there is more proof but I am just learning at this and I'm not sure where it is. Someone more experienced than me could explain because it has been explained to me but the Jeremiah one is so far the only one I've personally looked into yet.

Katy-Anne

You came up with this conclusion without looking into all the proof/evidence? :puzzled:

[joyfulpraise93]

Where you stand about the Bible is FAR too important of an issue just to hear what one man has to say about it and go with what he says. The best thing is to turn to the Word of God for all of your questions....it has already been clearly stated in this thread what God says in Revelation 22 "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" this goes for "advanced revelation". It has been explained already what the italics are for...so I won't go there. Just merely stating what I think, and what I firmly believe God's Word is teaching. That His Word was written by holy men of God, who were inspired. Then it was preserved for us by God. He used godly men to translate it into English for us. I believe if I were to go back and hold an original manuscript it would say the same thing my King James Bible says to me. God kept His Word perfectly. To say there is advanced revelation is to say that we now have more of God's Word than people did before the King James Bible came around. THAT certainly seems to go against what God said about adding to His Word! This would also be saying that God did not preserve His entire Word for other people, and we know this is not true.."Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:7.

[Will]

Okay Katy-Anne, I'm going to go ahead and make a few posts concerning this topic. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm misrepresenting anything you have said.

Let's look at the word "translate" in the Bible:

2 Samuel 3:10 To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over
Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The Bible itself proves that a translation can be better than the original. The first example shows the kingdom being translated from Saul to David...definitely an improvement!

The second translation is God translating us from the power of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son. That's a picture of salvation.

The third translation is when God took Enoch from this earth and took him up to Heaven, because he had the testimony of pleasing God. (section on translation written by Kathie Owen).

Okay. It's your argument that "translation" in the King James Version always means something better is being translated. However, I think we may have a misunderstanding of the word "translate." In order to discuss this issue properly, we need to define the term "translate." As with many English words, it can have multiple meanings.

From the Webster's Dictionary:

Translate
TRANSLA'TE, v.t. [L. translatus, from transfero; trans, over, and fero, to bear.]

1. To bear, carry or remove from one place to another. It is applied to the removal of a bishop from one see to another.

The bishop of Rochester, when the king would have translated him to a better bishoprick, refused.

2. To remove or convey to heaven, as a human being, without death.

By faith Enoch was translated, that he should not see

death. Heb 16.

3. To transfer; to convey from one to another. 2 Sam 3.

4. To cause to remove from one part of the body to another; as, to translate a disease.

5. To change.

Happy is your grace,

That can translate the stubbornness of fortune

Into so quiet and so sweet a style.

6. To interpret; to render into another language; to express the sense of one language in the words of another. The Old Testament was translated into the Greek language more than two hundred years before Christ. The Scriptures are now translated into most of the languages of Europe and Asia.

7. To explain.

So, there is a multiplicity of definitions here. Now, we must decide how the word "translate" is being used in any particular verse. Let's start with the first scripture you gave. I'm going to post that verse, in the context it's in from Scripture.

2Sa 3:8 Then was Abner very wroth for the words of Ish-bosheth, and said, Am I a dog's head, which against Judah do show kindness this day unto the house of Saul thy father, to his brethren, and to his friends, and have not delivered thee into the hand of David, that thou chargest me today with a fault concerning this woman?
2Sa 3:9 So do God to Abner, and more also, except, as the LORD hath sworn to David, even so I do to him;
2Sa 3:10 To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beer-sheba.
2Sa 3:11 And he could not answer Abner a word again, because he feared him.

Now, after looking at the above passage, how do we mean the word translate? It carries the third meaning, which is: 3. To transfer; to convey from one to another.
So what we have, is that God is translating(transferring) the Kingdom from Saul to David.

Now to the second passage:
Col 1:9-17
(9) For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
(10) That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
(11) Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
(12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
(13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So which type of translation is being done in the above passage? This is the first definition: 1. To bear, carry or remove from one place to another. Why is it the first definition? Becase the Father is translating(moving us) from the power of darkness, to the kingdom of Christ. When we are saved, we are translated(moved) from the Kingdom of the World, to the Kingdom of God. What's really interesting is the Greek word used here, which means literally to "change their standing." And that is such an incredible picture of what takes place, God moves us and causes us to stand in the Kingdom of Christ. Wow, what a picture there, of what happens when God translates us from one kingdom to another.

The third passage:
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

What meaning does this carry? Well, in order to understand this, we have to look back to the story of Enoch. Remember, Enoch walked with God, and was so close to God, that God took him directly to heaven. So this time, the word "translated" means "to take to heaven."

I'm not sure how it can be determined that any of these cases can be shown to correlate to the translation of the King James Version. I will await your clarification on that matter Katy-Anne. The presence of the word "translation" does not automatically indicate the type of translation that took place when the KJV translators worked on translating the Bible into English.

[Guest Guest]

Where you stand about the Bible is FAR too important of an issue just to hear what one man has to say about it and go with what he says. The best thing is to turn to the Word of God for all of your questions....it has already been clearly stated in this thread what God says in Revelation 22 "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" this goes for "advanced revelation". It has been explained already what the italics are for...so I won't go there. Just merely stating what I think, and what I firmly believe God's Word is teaching. That His Word was written by holy men of God, who were inspired. Then it was preserved for us by God. He used godly men to translate it into English for us. I believe if I were to go back and hold an original manuscript it would say the same thing my King James Bible says to me. God kept His Word perfectly. To say there is advanced revelation is to say that we now have more of God's Word than people did before the King James Bible came around. THAT certainly seems to go against what God said about adding to His Word! This would also be saying that God did not preserve His entire Word for other people, and we know this is not true.."Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:7.

You're right, if we had the original manuscripts, it'd match up exactly with our KJB. I don't believe there's anything extra in the KJB that wasn't there before. Anything "new" is just something that was always there, but no one noticed it before.

[Will]

It was when I got to this point that I began to realize there were TWO different lots of people that called themselves King James Bible only people, but in reality, only one of those groups is truly King James Bible only. The other group are Textus Receptus only people. That means they believe the KJB is the best because it was translated from the TR, not because it is the precious KJB that God inspired. The true King James Bible only people are those that believe the KJB is pure, perfect and inspired, not because of the TR, but because it is the King James Bible.

I'm not entirely sure how accurate the above quote is Katy-Anne. There are more than two types of KJV-Onlyists. Allow me to demonstrate.

1. Those who are TR-Only and believe the KJV is the best translation.

2. Those who are KJVO, and believe the KJV is inspired via preservation. In other words, because God preserved His word, the KJV is inspired because it is a 100% faithful and accurate translation of the preserved words of God.

3. Those who hold to advanced revelation and double-inspiration.

4. Those who hold to point 3, and believe the KJV is literally Jesus Christ.(Very few of this kind, but they are out there)