Why Calvinism cannot be true

[John the Baptist]

No where in the scriptures can it be found where God predestinated anyone to have eternal life.

He predestinates(predetermined) that believers should be conformed to the image of Christ.(Rom 8:29)

He predestinated that the Holy Ghost would call those who have already believed to a new life(of service to him along with persecution). (Rom. 8:30)

He predestinated that all those who believed would be in the adoption of children to Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:5)

He predestinated that believers should live their life for God's glory. (Eph. 1:11)

And he foreknew who would believe on him.

However, no where in the scriptures does it speak of being predestined to believe. That simply comes from a heretical, misleading, Satan-led, and perverted teaching of calvinism. God did not predetermine who would believe.

However, God did determine(predestinated) before time that the wages for sin is death. So we were all predestinated to an eternity of torments in hell. And God also determined before time that he would send his Son to take that penalty of death for all those who might believe. Yet God only foreknew who would accept the Savior.

I majored in physics in college and one thing that I seem to find in the scriptures is that God is not confined by time like you or I or the creation. He sees everything as having already happened because to him it already has. He dwells outside the confines of time yet also is eternally present in time past present and future. So for him to foreknow something means he's already there and has already seen it happen. Now I will state that this is my opinion based on what I've studied in the scriptures. However, if you study how God told Moses to tell the Israelites "The I AM has sent you," It becomes apparent that God certainly has a different perspective on time then we do. Also the scriptures says:

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This implies God having a relationship with time that far exceeds our linear understanding.

So I would say that when God says he knows about something that will happen, it is not because he necessarily made it happen(though he may make it come to pass) but it is because he is already there.

So when he foreknows who will accept Christ and who won't, it is not that he made them or didn't make them accept Christ. It is simply that he already is at the end. He is "the ending".

You are a pretty nasty dude, arn't you. I hope you are saved.

You evidently cannot accept the Scriptural truth of Roman,s 8:30 in your bais understanding. Rom. 8:30 clearly refers to the process of salvation, not service. Your bais and hate for Calvinism kepts you from the truth of Scripture. There are godly saints on both sides of the spectrum, both Calvinist and those who are more Arminian. To call either demons or devils are heretics because you do not agree with them is mean spirited and anti-Holy Spirit.

Do you know what double predestination is? ONe of the aspects is that some are predestinated to hell. No one is predestinated to hell. If you were predestined to hell you would go to hell! You do not understand the word for fore know. It is ??????????? the Word ???????? means to know some one in a personal relationship. It is an experiential knowledge not "prescience." The Word ??? places the knowledge in eternity past.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We are predestined to the adoption of Childern. What does that means? It means we have become a son of God. This clearly implies salvation.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:8 ??? ???? ?? ? ??? ?? ? ???? ??? ????? ????? ? ?????? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ????????? ? ???????????

I even I am continuously being the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, says the Lord, The One Who is continuously existing and The One who was continuously existing (eternity past) and The One Who is coming, The Almighty. The present tense in the Greek has linear action.

So when he foreknows who will accept Christ and who won't, it is not that he made them or didn't make them accept Christ. It is simply that he already is at the end. He is "the ending".

This is prescience. Who did the electing God or man?

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If you read the vs prior to this which is a promise vs 28 that most Christians cling to it says," all things work for the good..." This is speaking of people that already saved. Context is everything.
Christians are predestined to be like Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation.

[John the Baptist]

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow' date=' he also did predestinate [b'][to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If you read the vs prior to this which is a promise vs 28 that most Christians cling to it says," all things work for the good..." This is speaking of people that already saved. Context is everything.
Christians are predestined to be like Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Your theology is causing you to misinterprete verses 29-30. Paul through the inspiration of Scripture is going back to eternity past to shown how those called to salvation were called, justified and Glorified. Foreknow, predestinated, called, justifed and glorified are all in the Aorist indicative. The indicative puts these events in the past. Because in the mind and will of God it is so certain they will happen that they are written as if all five events had taken place. Foreknowledge and predestination took place in eternity past, The call, justification take place in time in the experience and life of the one trusting Christ, glorification will take place in the future when The Lord comes in the air at the rapture.

God Bless
John

[JJJ4given]

You are a pretty nasty dude, arn't you. I hope you are saved.

You evidently cannot accept the Scriptural truth of Roman,s 8:30 in your bais understanding. Rom. 8:30 clearly refers to the process of salvation, not service. Your bais and hate for Calvinism kepts you from the truth of Scripture. There are godly saints on both sides of the spectrum, both Calvinist and those who are more Arminian. To call either demons or devils are heretics because you do not agree with them is mean spirited and anti-Holy Spirit.

Do you know what double predestination is? ONe of the aspects is that some are predestinated to hell. No one is predestinated to hell. If you were predestined to hell you would go to hell! You do not understand the word for fore know. It is ??????????? the Word ???????? means to know some one in a personal relationship. It is an experiential knowledge not "prescience." The Word ??? places the knowledge in eternity past.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We are predestined to the adoption of Childern. What does that means? It means we have become a son of God. This clearly implies salvation.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:8 ??? ???? ?? ? ??? ?? ? ???? ??? ????? ????? ? ?????? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ????????? ? ???????????

I even I am continuously being the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, says the Lord, The One Who is continuously existing and The One who was continuously existing (eternity past) and The One Who is coming, The Almighty. The present tense in the Greek has linear action.



This is prescience. Who did the electing God or man?

Christ and Paul both referred to those who would teach something contrary to the scriptures and to God's plan as heretics. There is nothing mean-spirited about it. Christ did not treat the pharisees lightly nor did Paul the judiasers. In fact, I recall Jesus saying their father was the devil. Is that any different then me saying it is a satan-led heresy? Call an apple an apple. This is clearly not a case of someone who is simply confused, but it is a case of someone who is deeply entrenched in a teaching that has sent many to hell. That is Satan-led heresy, my friend.

Also, I never said anything about double predestination. Never even hinted that you believe it. And I really don't care whether you do or not because believing in predestination for eternal life is just as bad as believing predestination for eternal damnation. Whether it is exclusion or prejudice; it is all from the same root heresy. It is no where found in the scriptures.

Also, if you examine the greek in Eph. 1:5 or even the english, (it makes no difference) you will see that the adoption of children unto Jesus Christ has not happened yet.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Has your body been redeemed yet? Mine sure hasn't. But it sure is predestinated to be. And that has nothing to do with me being born again. I already have the new spirit when I repented and believed, but I still have the old body. But one day I look forward to that adoption of children unto Jesus Christ, where we obtain a body just like his(not identical, but immortal).

[John the Baptist]

Christ and Paul both referred to those who would teach something contrary to the scriptures and to God's plan as heretics. There is nothing mean-spirited about it. Christ did not treat the pharisees lightly nor did Paul the judiasers. In fact, I recall Jesus saying their father was the devil. Is that any different then me saying it is a satan-led heresy? Call an apple an apple. This is clearly not a case of someone who is simply confused, but it is a case of someone who is deeply entrenched in a teaching that has sent many to hell. That is Satan-led heresy, my friend.

Also, I never said anything about double predestination. Never even hinted that you believe it. And I really don't care whether you do or not because believing in predestination for eternal life is just as bad as believing predestination for eternal damnation. Whether it is exclusion or prejudice; it is all from the same root heresy. It is no where found in the scriptures.

Also, if you examine the greek in Eph. 1:5 or even the english, (it makes no difference) you will see that the adoption of children unto Jesus Christ has not happened yet.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Has your body been redeemed yet? Mine sure hasn't. But it sure is predestinated to be. And that has nothing to do with me being born again. I already have the new spirit when I repented and believed, but I still have the old body. But one day I look forward to that adoption of children unto Jesus Christ, where we obtain a body just like his(not identical, but immortal).

This is the trouble with many KJV Only folks, if anyone disagrees with them they are branded aa heretic. There are many that hold to Calvinist teaching that are goldy people. You are making some leaping accertains that have no basis.

There are godly Christians that hold different views of the Second coming. But that does not make them a heretic. The test of salvation is that one has put their faith into Jesus Christ and recieved Him into their lives. It is not because one is a Calvinist or not. I thank you just like to argue for arguments sake.

[orvals]

John the Baptist,

Since you would not answer my question concerning your definition of sovereignty I will ask you this question perhaps you will answer it. Since God predestined us from eternity past and this choosing was not based on foreknowledge (your view) and since man has no free choice in the matter of salvation (your view) but by electing some to salvation that leaves many lost with no chance of salvation (just their luck). How is it that when God created hell it was only for Satan and his fallen angels? Matthew 25:14

Why was hell not created for fallen unredeemable men who would end up in hell because they were not elected to salvation since all were chosen in eternity past? Certainly if predestination and election were God's way of dealing with all men He would not hide it from man so that only the learned Calvinist's would find it.

My brother I believe you are caught up in Gnosticism this is why you believe a man must be regenerated prior to salvation (to free him from the evil of this world that has enslaved his soul). You believe that truth is hidden in knowledge and that you have been given divine insights that only the elect Calvinists can know.

Does it not seem strange to you that the bible closes in part with these verses?

Revelation 22:16-17 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I look forward to your response to these questions as well as my first question.

Orvals

[John the Baptist]

John the Baptist,

Since you would not answer my question concerning your definition of sovereignty I will ask you this question perhaps you will answer it. Since God predestined us from eternity past and this choosing was not based on foreknowledge (your view) and since man has no free choice in the matter of salvation (your view) but by electing some to salvation that leaves many lost with no chance of salvation (just their luck). How is it that when God created hell it was only for Satan and his fallen angels? Matthew 25:14

Why was hell not created for fallen unredeemable men who would end up in hell because they were not elected to salvation since all were chosen in eternity past? Certainly if predestination and election were God's way of dealing with all men He would not hide it from man so that only the learned Calvinist's would find it.

My brother I believe you are caught up in Gnosticism this is why you believe a man must be regenerated prior to salvation (to free him from the evil of this world that has enslaved his soul). You believe that truth is hidden in knowledge and that you have been given divine insights that only the elect Calvinists can know.

Does it not seem strange to you that the bible closes in part with these verses?

Revelation 22:16-17 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I look forward to your response to these questions as well as my first question.

Orvals

God is Sovereignty is based on the fact that he created all things by His power and for His glory. In His sovereign power He upholds the universe. God exercises control over all his works. He in his omnipotence will carry out his will in all things. God is Sovereign in his choices and will. His will will be done and His kingdom will come.

I never said that Predestination was not based on the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge is in the Bible. The word forknowledge does not mean prescience. If God did not elect some none would be saved.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Man has the responsiblity to repent of his sin and trust Christ in order to be saved. The Sovereignty of God in Election is a Bible fact and so is the responsibility of man to trust Christ in order to be saved. My little mind has not figured out how these two completely harmonize. But the Bible teaches both. "Whosoever will may come."

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Man goes to hell because he will not come to Christ. There is no one God will not save who will trust Him.

Someone said when we get to heaven As we go enter in over the entrance will be written "Whosoever will" and as we go through on the other side it will say chosen before the foundation of the world.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of(the message preached) preaching to save them that believe.

WE are not to worry about who is elect, but we are to win the lost at any cost!

God bless
John

[JJJ4given]

This has nothing to do with KJV only. In fact, I also read Tyndale's Bible and the greek majority text(according to what I am able to so far).

However, this does have to do with sound doctrine and not sound doctrine. Revelation comes after salvation and is taught by the Holy Ghost. He limits who he teaches to because not all have been obedient to his calling after salvation. Once someone gets off the path, whether it be right when they begin, or down the road, he then cannot teach them spiritual as they are again focused on the carnal. Also, the Holy Ghost only teaches one doctrine. Not many different doctrines. You don't need to read commentaries to get his instruction. You only need to read the Bible.

Thanks, Orvals, for your insights on gnostics and such. Never tied them with calvinists.

What I find is interesting is Paul lays down a clear groundwork for things he says. It is not him contradicting himself, as some might suppose labeling such as "tension of the scriptures", but it is him speaking of things beyond spiritual birth. Most people are so hung up on being born again that they haven't gotten to move on. So they read everything as though it is talking about salvation. And then there seems to be contradictions and confusion. Repentance and faith on the resurrected Lord can be explained to an unbeliever within under one page of writing. Yet the scriptures contains over a thousand pages. This is because being born again is only the beginning. Only a small portion of the scriptures is to the lost, because it doesn't take much to explain that they are a sinner in need of the Savior.

Just take in consideration that maybe not all the scriptures is dealing with being born again(contrary to what the commentators will say).

[Calvary]

A person cannot be one of God?s elect from birth.

If election is applied to a person at conception because they were elected from the foundation of the world and a person is therefore born elect, then they must be sinless form birth.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

They are justified by God; they could never from the memento for election be considered depraved sinners.
However, Romans 3 clearly shows that all men are in fact sinners and Romans 5:12 explains that sin entered into the world by one man (Adam) and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that ALL have sinned.
Furthermore, already being the elect of God who fulfill the ultimate purpose of God in creation, they would never have to be in need of regeneration, yet Jesus said Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Salvation, regeneration and grace cannot be conditional upon past election.
If somehow the scriptures did allow that some totally depraved sinners were God?s elect, then they would be in need of regeneration and salvation from wrath and death. However, a person becomes a child of God by regeneration (John 1:12, 13), so many of God?s elect would not yet be sons of God but children of their father, the devil (John 8:44)! That is contradictory to the whole notion of God?s elect.
Then, too, grace, salvation and regeneration would be based solely upon and be a consequence of past election. If salvation is solely the result of grace received because of election since the beginning of existence, then a man is justified by election and access to grace would be by election. Salvation would then be conditional upon election alone. This contradicts the scriptures which say that a man is justified by faith and access to grace is by faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith, not election, is the condition in man required to have access to grace.



God bless,

Calvary

[John the Baptist]

A person cannot be one of God?s elect from birth.

If election is applied to a person at conception because they were elected from the foundation of the world and a person is therefore born elect, then they must be sinless form birth.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

They are justified by God; they could never from the memento for election be considered depraved sinners.
However, Romans 3 clearly shows that all men are in fact sinners and Romans 5:12 explains that sin entered into the world by one man (Adam) and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that ALL have sinned.
Furthermore, already being the elect of God who fulfill the ultimate purpose of God in creation, they would never have to be in need of regeneration, yet Jesus said Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Salvation, regeneration and grace cannot be conditional upon past election.
If somehow the scriptures did allow that some totally depraved sinners were God?s elect, then they would be in need of regeneration and salvation from wrath and death. However, a person becomes a child of God by regeneration (John 1:12, 13), so many of God?s elect would not yet be sons of God but children of their father, the devil (John 8:44)! That is contradictory to the whole notion of God?s elect.
Then, too, grace, salvation and regeneration would be based solely upon and be a consequence of past election. If salvation is solely the result of grace received because of election since the beginning of existence, then a man is justified by election and access to grace would be by election. Salvation would then be conditional upon election alone. This contradicts the scriptures which say that a man is justified by faith and access to grace is by faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith, not election, is the condition in man required to have access to grace.



God bless,

Calvary

No where does Scripture teach one is saved from birth. One is elected to salvation. They are not saved until they trust Christ and are born again. Election does not means they were saved at birth.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Calvary]

If salvation is the consequence of election applied at the beginning of a person?s existence, then condemnation is based upon not having been elected. John 3:18 says that condemnation is based upon whether a person believes or not.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It does not read, he that is elected from birth is not condemned, but he that is not elected is condemned already because he hath not been elected. It says that it is conditional upon the man?s belief, not the election of God.

Salvation is the consequence of faith, and a person becomes one of the elect from the foundation of the world upon faith in Christ Jesus.

The word of God clearly says that salvation is through faith: it does not say that it is through election.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God bless,

Calvary

[JJJ4given]

As I examine the scriptures I see the elect referring to one of three different things:

Jesus Christ
Israel
the NT church
(and one reference to elect angels; 1 Tim. 5:21)

In the NT it is most certainly referring to the NT church. All three God predestined outside of time for a purpose. However, there are and were many who were not in the 3 categories above but had eternal life. Let me make a list:

Lot
Enoch
Ruth

And I'm sure there are many more. In the NT there was:

the thief on the cross
the samaritan woman at the well
the man in 1 Cor. 5 for a time

They had eternal life yet they did not fall in any of the three categories listed above.

With that in mind it becomes clear that elect(eklektos) is not necessarily in reference to eternal life. It is in reference to a person, nation, or institution God has chosen for a purpose.

Calvinism tries to conveniently redefine the word to mean "chosen by God before time for eternal life" and then applies that definition to individuals. Yet there is no scriptural backing for such a definition. In fact, the scriptures could easily destroy that definition.

[John the Baptist]

If salvation is the consequence of election applied at the beginning of a person?s existence, then condemnation is based upon not having been elected. John 3:18 says that condemnation is based upon whether a person believes or not.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It does not read, he that is elected from birth is not condemned, but he that is not elected is condemned already because he hath not been elected. It says that it is conditional upon the man?s belief, not the election of God.

Salvation is the consequence of faith, and a person becomes one of the elect from the foundation of the world upon faith in Christ Jesus.

The word of God clearly says that salvation is through faith: it does not say that it is through election.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God bless,

Calvary

Election did not take place at the beginning of one's existence but before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You do not understand what the Bible teaches about election. Condemation is not based on election but on the sinfulness of man. Man is already condemned in his sin.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

As I examine the scriptures I see the elect referring to one of three different things:

Jesus Christ
Israel
the NT church
(and one reference to elect angels; 1 Tim. 5:21)

In the NT it is most certainly referring to the NT church. All three God predestined outside of time for a purpose. However, there are and were many who were not in the 3 categories above but had eternal life. Let me make a list:

Lot
Enoch
Ruth

And I'm sure there are many more. In the NT there was:

the thief on the cross
the samaritan woman at the well
the man in 1 Cor. 5 for a time

They had eternal life yet they did not fall in any of the three categories listed above.

With that in mind it becomes clear that elect(eklektos) is not necessarily in reference to eternal life. It is in reference to a person, nation, or institution God has chosen for a purpose.

Calvinism tries to conveniently redefine the word to mean "chosen by God before time for eternal life" and then applies that definition to individuals. Yet there is no scriptural backing for such a definition. In fact, the scriptures could easily destroy that definition.

Israel was chosen of God, but notice in Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. It is the remnant that will be saved. Those who are elected, as well as elect Gentiles who will be saved.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Groups are made up of individuals. Election is individual.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[JJJ4given]

Israel was chosen of God, but notice in
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

It is the remnant that will be saved. Those who are elected, as well as elect Gentiles who will be saved.

Romans 9:6

[bob123]

An excellent work on this subject is "5 points, 2 views" in which Dave Hunt takes on James White in a debate. The most fundamental weakness of Calvinism is clearly obvious viz. that Mr White relies too much on the sayings of the reformers and the Confessions of Faith rather than the Bible alone. Mr Hunt uses the Bible and does so with devastating effect. I have written a review of this on the UK Amazon web site.

Bob