John Piper

[heartstrings]

Read the whole sentence it's different than the "once saved, always saved" VIEW in SOME evangelical churches.

Those would be the easy believism churches that particular view of "once saved, always saved".

I believe that most of those who show absolutely no change in their life probably aren't saved either(not all but most) ... so where does that place me?

I believe that most of those who show absolutely no change in their life probably aren't saved either(not all but most)

I agree, but what about someone who DOES change and later falls into sin? WHat about the man in 1 Corinthians 5?

Friend, I don't know for sure about anyone else's salvation but my own.
I don't see "easy believism" mentioned here. What stands out to me are the terms; "truly saved" and "slightly different".

Here is the quote again:

This is slightly different

slightly different from what?

from the "once saved, always saved" view

And what is that view?

despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past

The key word here is "TRULY". What does "truly" mean?

So, if you truly got saved, it's "once saved, always saved". Do you beleive that?
How can that be "slightly different from eternal security?

[zealyouthguy]

So' date=' if you truly got saved, it's "once saved, always saved". Do you beleive that?
How can that be "slightly different from eternal security?

Honestly heartstrings... I wonder if you are purposely obtuse and circular, or is this your M.O.?

I'll answer your question with a question... what does it mean to be saved?

Since we want to bandy about words... what is salvation? Are there people who believed they are "once saved, always saved" that aren't?

If you answer "yes" to that question... then you KNOW the answer to your own question above.

[hayesy]

Hi everyone,
I've been reading this thread with rising incredulity at the amount of hearsay and speculation being thrown about.

I hate false teachers as much as the next person, and if I have reason for suspicion I look at them carefully to see if they are. If I find that they are, I stay away and warn others!
So I empathise with the intentions here. However, an important step is missing: the careful investigation.

John Piper is easier to investigate than almost anybody else - every sermon, article, and many books can be found easily and listened/read for free online. Yet, instead of listening to a sermon or reading an article, I have seen people take two words, Christian Hedonist, and speculate on them. You would not judge Ray Comfort based on the new-age sounding "The Way of The Master", would you?

While what Piper means by that phrase was available to all, as shown by proverbs356's quotes, the discussion instead speculated:
"This John Piper fellow claims to want to do everything to make himself happy. :Hmmm:, right away now we see he is straying from the truth:::: We are to do all to the Glory of God."
Had the author of this reply looked at what Piper actually means, as proverbs356 did, they would have found the same belief: "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever.")

He is a calvinist. And yet, I hope you would freely admit (as, in fact, he has) that no-one has perfect theology in this age. We must not condemn all who disagree with us as heretics, for even if we are right in our own belief (and we have seen that we may not always be correct), so long as they proclaim the saving gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, they are not necessarily a heretic.

If Piper's foundation is wrong, the building he has built on it seems amazingly true! I've scarcely heard anyone so in love with God, so driven in his desire to see God glorified, so passionate about seeing others worship and glorify God, and so devoted to the careful reading and interpretation of the scriptures.

I do not go to his church, but have listened to a number of his sermons online, and I could not bear the misrepresention I have seen here. Please, before you judge him (if you judge at all) give him a chance to speak for himself.
If you can spare 3 minutes, I came across this videogoogling Piper (which is what brought me here) - see if you agree with the message he presents.

Does anyone have any examples of specific false teaching aside from his calvanism?

[heartstrings]

Honestly heartstrings... I wonder if you are purposely obtuse and circular, or is this your M.O.?

I'll answer your question with a question... what does it mean to be saved?

Since we want to bandy about words... what is salvation? Are there people who believed they are "once saved, always saved" that aren't?

If you answer "yes" to that question... then you KNOW the answer to your own question above.

Sir, you have accused me of "intellectual dishonesty".
Again, I ask you to show me where I did this.

[heartstrings]

Hi everyone,
I've been reading this thread with rising incredulity at the amount of hearsay and speculation being thrown about.

I hate false teachers as much as the next person, and if I have reason for suspicion I look at them carefully to see if they are. If I find that they are, I stay away and warn others!
So I empathise with the intentions here. However, an important step is missing: the careful investigation.

John Piper is easier to investigate than almost anybody else - every sermon, article, and many books can be found easily and listened/read for free online. Yet, instead of listening to a sermon or reading an article, I have seen people take two words, Christian Hedonist, and speculate on them. You would not judge Ray Comfort based on the new-age sounding "The Way of The Master", would you?

While what Piper means by that phrase was available to all, as shown by proverbs356's quotes, the discussion instead speculated:
"This John Piper fellow claims to want to do everything to make himself happy. :Hmmm:, right away now we see he is straying from the truth:::: We are to do all to the Glory of God."
Had the author of this reply looked at what Piper actually means, as proverbs356 did, they would have found the same belief: "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever.")

He is a calvinist. And yet, I hope you would freely admit (as, in fact, he has) that no-one has perfect theology in this age. We must not condemn all who disagree with us as heretics, for even if we are right in our own belief (and we have seen that we may not always be correct), so long as they proclaim the saving gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, they are not necessarily a heretic.

If Piper's foundation is wrong, the building he has built on it seems amazingly true! I've scarcely heard anyone so in love with God, so driven in his desire to see God glorified, so passionate about seeing others worship and glorify God, and so devoted to the careful reading and interpretation of the scriptures.

I do not go to his church, but have listened to a number of his sermons online, and I could not bear the misrepresention I have seen here. Please, before you judge him (if you judge at all) give him a chance to speak for himself.
If you can spare 3 minutes, I came across this videogoogling Piper (which is what brought me here) - see if you agree with the message he presents.

Does anyone have any examples of specific false teaching aside from his calvanism?

If he preaches a salvation like this....I don't need to read anymore. The man appears to put most of his emphasis on "glory of God". He's not glorifying the God I know. This is a load of JUNK!

There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. John Piper

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... rseverance

[dwayner79]

Fix your link please.

That statement has been said another way by Baptist throughout history. Its that if you turn from God you were never saved. The Perseverance of the saints is probably the one doctrine that Calvinists and those who aren't agree on the closest.

[dwayner79]

Hi everyone,
I've been reading this thread with rising incredulity at the amount of hearsay and speculation being thrown about.

I hate false teachers as much as the next person, and if I have reason for suspicion I look at them carefully to see if they are. If I find that they are, I stay away and warn others!
So I empathise with the intentions here. However, an important step is missing: the careful investigation.

John Piper is easier to investigate than almost anybody else - every sermon, article, and many books can be found easily and listened/read for free online. Yet, instead of listening to a sermon or reading an article, I have seen people take two words, Christian Hedonist, and speculate on them. You would not judge Ray Comfort based on the new-age sounding "The Way of The Master", would you?

While what Piper means by that phrase was available to all, as shown by proverbs356's quotes, the discussion instead speculated:
"This John Piper fellow claims to want to do everything to make himself happy. :Hmmm:, right away now we see he is straying from the truth:::: We are to do all to the Glory of God."
Had the author of this reply looked at what Piper actually means, as proverbs356 did, they would have found the same belief: "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever.")

He is a calvinist. And yet, I hope you would freely admit (as, in fact, he has) that no-one has perfect theology in this age. We must not condemn all who disagree with us as heretics, for even if we are right in our own belief (and we have seen that we may not always be correct), so long as they proclaim the saving gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone, they are not necessarily a heretic.

If Piper's foundation is wrong, the building he has built on it seems amazingly true! I've scarcely heard anyone so in love with God, so driven in his desire to see God glorified, so passionate about seeing others worship and glorify God, and so devoted to the careful reading and interpretation of the scriptures.

I do not go to his church, but have listened to a number of his sermons online, and I could not bear the misrepresention I have seen here. Please, before you judge him (if you judge at all) give him a chance to speak for himself.
If you can spare 3 minutes, I came across this videogoogling Piper (which is what brought me here) - see if you agree with the message he presents.

Does anyone have any examples of specific false teaching aside from his calvinism?

Welcome, good post. Thanks. This is a passionate group of people. I hope you stick around and get to know us a bit. Some you will enjoy, others you won't. It's a good community, though.

[zealyouthguy]

Sir, you have accused me of "intellectual dishonesty".
Again, I ask you to show me where I did this.

I don't even know why I waste the time, I will do it AGAIN though... this is the last time.

you said: The whole thing is heretical.

and then you said: Perseverance of the Saints If you read Piper's teaching on this, it seems he talks out of both sides of his mouth. One place he calls it "eternal security" and another, you find quotes like this...

and as I said:

First, cherry picking what "some" people believe is intellectually dishonest. I am not a calvinist, but if you go over to sharper iron and ask them what perseverance of the saints means you will find the vast majority believe it as I posted it from the wikipedia site.

I know you won't even see this or admit to but you said... (all strung together for cohesiveness of thought)

The WHOLE thing (all 5 points of calvinism) is heretical [because] here is what John Piper teaches.


There is really no need for me to discuss this any longer, it's all in documented above.

[heartstrings]

I don't even know why I waste the time, I will do it AGAIN though... this is the last time.

you said: The whole thing is heretical.

and then you said: Perseverance of the Saints If you read Piper's teaching on this, it seems he talks out of both sides of his mouth. One place he calls it "eternal security" and another, you find quotes like this...

and as I said:

First, cherry picking what "some" people believe is intellectually dishonest. I am not a calvinist, but if you go over to sharper iron and ask them what perseverance of the saints means you will find the vast majority believe it as I posted it from the wikipedia site.

I know you won't even see this or admit to but you said... (all strung together for cohesiveness of thought)

The WHOLE thing (all 5 points of calvinism) is heretical [because] here is what John Piper teaches.


There is really no need for me to discuss this any longer, it's all in documented above.

Sorry if I have offended you. Sorry I didn't cross my T's and dot my i's just right. Forgive me for being "intellectually dishonest".
Here is your wikipedia quote on the part in question once again....
Is it any different from Piper's view?

Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security," the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may be proof that they never were saved.

[hayesy]

Thanks for the welcome dwayner!

One thing I have noticed about Piper is his desire to be true to the scriptures. Ergo, nigh on everything he says is accompanied by a reference to where he feels it is found.
So, I took a look at the scripture references Piper uses to justify his belief:

l Corinthians 15:1,2, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast--unless you believed in vain."

Colossians 1:21-23, "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel..."

2 Timothy 2:ll,l2, "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him..."

Mark 13:13, "But he who endures to the end will be saved."

See also Revelation 2:7,l0,ll,l7,25,26; 3:5,ll,l2,2l.

(From the link posted by heartstrings)

There are more on that page, under each sub-heading, but I thought it better to take a sample rather than flood the board.
How do those opposed to Piper's belief read these references?

[hayesy]

I'm not sure what to make of this...
John Piper just put up a blog entry which outlines his heresy... :puzzled:

So, to hear what Piper thinks fundamentalists think about what he thinks, read this.

(btw, to understand his belief in the continuation of miraculous sign gifts, I reccommend you listen to the series he preached on them - it was the first (and, so far only) series I've heard him preach, and it was largely that series that convinced me of his complete devotion to being true to the Bible. He agonised over which way to go on the issue, and freely admitted he might be wrong, but went with the direction he thought the Bible went.)

[kevinmiller]

I have to say that the more I learn about him, the more I admire his passion and character, even though I don't agree with him on certain theological issues.

[hayesy]

"16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. "

Matthew 7:16-20

[heartstrings]

Thanks for the welcome dwayner!

One thing I have noticed about Piper is his desire to be true to the scriptures. Ergo, nigh on everything he says is accompanied by a reference to where he feels it is found.
So, I took a look at the scripture references Piper uses to justify his belief:

(From the link posted by heartstrings)

There are more on that page, under each sub-heading, but I thought it better to take a sample rather than flood the board.
How do those opposed to Piper's belief read these references?

Once agin, Hayesy,
Sorry for not welcoming you.

That's another thing that makes me wary of John Piper.
He uses MV's

This is Colossians 1:21-23
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

It's not talking about "making it into Heaven" if ye continue in the faith....or "persevere".
I believe this verse is referring to the Judgement seat of Christ, is it not?

[John81]

I have to say that the more I learn about him' date=' the more I admire his passion and character, even though I don't agree with him on certain theological issues.[/quote']

Could you expound a bit Kevin? I'm not really familiar with Piper but I did hear or read a quote from him somewhere in the past month and I recall that quote was good.