John Piper

[Jerry]

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 reveal that signs and wonders, sign gifts, etc. are not for today. There is no need for uncertainty - we just need to accept what God already said. With the full Word of God, we no longer need these secondary, imperfect gifts (ie. 9 sign gifts referred to in chapter 12).

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

[hayesy]

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 reveal that signs and wonders, sign gifts, etc. are not for today. There is no need for uncertainty - we just need to accept what God already said. With the full Word of God, we no longer need these secondary, imperfect gifts (ie. 9 sign gifts referred to in chapter 12).

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

I appreciate your position, it is that of my own church and was my own. But Piper convinced me otherwise, through the clearest piece of exegesis I've ever heard.

I encourage you to read/listen to his "When will prophecy cease?" sermon.

The clincher for me is "then shall I know even as also I am known" - the very fact that we have this conversation is evidence that I don't know as I am known. And I am known so deeply!

A line from a poem on the site you linked to is:
Faith to face, I look forward to seeing Jesus

That is the face to face I am convinced Paul is speaking of.

[heartstrings]

Of the sign gifts, the "tongues" in the New and Old Testaments were foreign languages. Is that what the tongue talkers are speaking? What about making a quadriplegic walk or the dumb to talk? Are they doing those things too? Another of the sign gifts was "raising the dead". Anyone doing that now?

I don't trust anything John Piper says.
#1. Jesus died for all and for "whosoever will" and it's not God's will for anyone to go to Hell.
#2. The sign gifts are no more.

Acts 20:29-30, Matthew 7:15

[Jerry]

I encourage you to read/listen to his "When will prophecy cease?" sermon.

Why would I listen to someone you (or someone else in this thread) admitted did not have the answer to this issue?

[hayesy]

Why would I listen to someone you (or someone else in this thread) admitted did not have the answer to this issue?

Oh, misunderstanding. I referred to a few sermons in the same series. In that particular sermon he does answer the question and makes a very convincing case.
By all means, write it off without listening HS, at least you'll be consistant.

[heartstrings]

Oh, misunderstanding. I referred to a few sermons in the same series. In that particular sermon he does answer the question and makes a very convincing case.
By all means, write it off without listening HS, at least you'll be consistant.

Sir, Please be careful whose sermons you listen to.
Just because something might look like a sheep, don't mean it is. The man teaches heresy. Calvinism is a blasphemy against the name and character of God. I do not want to listen to false teachers.

Mat 7:15

[John81]

Is a false prophet one who leads folks away from God or is a false prophet also one who may not be correct on all biblical matters or may just differ from some on a point or two?

[kevinmiller]

Is a false prophet one who leads folks away from God or is a false prophet also one who may not be correct on all biblical matters or may just differ from some on a point or two?

Good point John. A false prophet is, I believe, someone who is not saved to begin with. A false prophet is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A Christian will always be a sheep, no matter what doctrine or belief they teach or believe.

[heartstrings]

What kind of prophet, preaches a false Jesus?

T...A false Jesus, who does not give man a will to choose.
U....A false, selfish Jesus who created some for Heaven, others were made especially for Hell "for God's glory"
L.....A false Jesus who did not die for everyone.
I....A false Jesus who forces people to "beleive"
P....A False Jesus who requires "perseverance" to make it in(or whatever variation)

The real Jesus died for every man, woman and child and every sin ever committed.
Jesus loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved.
He is all powerful, He is wonderful, compassionate and merciful, He is Love, He cares.
We love Him because He first loved us 1 John 4:19

[kevinmiller]

No offense intended, but you almost seem as though God is not a just God. In perfect balance with love is his judgement on mankind.

With regards to a false prophet, the Bible always indicates that a false prophet is unsaved, an enemy of God. Therefore, a Christian cannot be a false prophet, whether he or she believes in Calvinism or doesn't.

[heartstrings]

No offense intended' date=' butyou almost seem as though God is not a just God. In perfect balance with love is his judgement on mankind.

With regards to a false prophet, the Bible always indicates that a false prophet is unsaved, an enemy of God. Therefore, a Christian cannot be a false prophet, whether he or she believes in Calvinism or doesn't.

The true and living God of the Bible is a just God.
Do you not understand?

What kind of prophet, preaches a false Jesus?

T...A false Jesus, who does not give man a will to choose.
U....A false, selfish Jesus who created some for Heaven, others were made especially for Hell "for God's glory"
L.....A false Jesus who did not die for everyone.
I....A false Jesus who forces people to "beleive"
P....A False Jesus who requires "perseverance" to make it in(or whatever variation)

The real Jesus died for every man, woman and child and every sin ever committed.
Jesus loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved.
He is all powerful, He is wonderful, compassionate and merciful, He is Love, He cares.
We love Him because He first loved us 1 John 4:19

[John81]

If God were to do things we don't like or understand, that wouldn't change His being a just God.

Scripture indicates God knows what would bring people to repentance; as in the examples of when God declares such and such would have repented if...

Scripture says God wishes all to come to Him, yet Scripture also makes it clear that God doesn't always send the message or messenger in a manner that He knows would bring about the salvation of some.

Does such make God unjust? Considering God is perfect, I don't know how we (his creation) can make such a statement.

Scripture is clear that whatever God does, and for whatever reason He chooses to do it, it's the best.

[kevinmiller]

The true and living God of the Bible is a just God.
Do you not understand?

You bet, two sentences cleared everything up... :roll

You say repeatedly that God is love, God is love, God is love. Where do you talk about His justness, His righteous anger, His condemnation? God is love, but He is also just, you cannot separate the two.

[Jerry]

Piper is not a false PROPHET (ie. someone claiming to have new revelation from God), but a false TEACHER (someone whose teaching does not line up with the Word of God).

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread or a related thread mentioning Piper, he is not against tongues and sign gifts because he has not reached a definite conclusion on the issue (ie. whether they are or are not from God today); therefore why should we listen to any of his sermons on the issue when he is undecided? Doesn't make any sense.

[anime4christ]

I have a question though, Jerry (I really like your posts on many issues in this forum section and agree with you on most of them, but...): Isn't it a bit too far to claim Piper to be unsaved and serving a different god if he teaches Calvinism as HS says? I'd like to know if you share heartstrings' opinion, or if you share mine where even though he believes a false teaching, he still is probably saved and is trying to serve the one true God, but just has something wrong with his theology.