Gog and Magog

[Bakershalfdozen]

How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and it is pre trib. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?

[Jerry]

In Ezekiel 38-39, we see Gog and Magog coming against Israel - just prior to the Tribulation period or at the start of it. Then in Revelation 20, we see symbolic Gog and Magog ( - not the same as the OT nations - just like Revelation 17-19 refers to symbolic endtime Babylon, not the same as the OT Babylon, but following in its example and spiritual footsteps). There are no other references to these nations that I am aware of.

[pneu-engine]

[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and[color=#BF0000][b] it is pre trib[/b][/color]. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?[/quote]
I was always taught that the first war was very soon after the Rapture but just before the Trib. So then, It's post Rapture but pre-trib.

[bibletotingunslinger]

I have some commentary written on the subject, and I think the Jack Van Impe Bible has the best on this.
Many have written on the subject of Gog and Magog(Russia) attaching Israel, and the timing of this event is in the end times. I have been trying to post this but,,, not working,,, I know it ain't much, hope it helps.
so far I see no one has posted yet but maybe others are and that is stopping me from posting this.

Ezekiel 38:3
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:


Ezekiel 38:15
And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Ezekiel 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Ezekiel 39:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[Bakershalfdozen]

In Ezekiel 38-39' date=' we see Gog and Magog coming against Israel - just prior to the Tribulation period or at the start of it. Then in Revelation 20, we see symbolic Gog and Magog ( - not the same as the OT nations - just like Revelation 17-19 refers to symbolic endtime Babylon, not the same as the OT Babylon, but following in its example and spiritual footsteps). There are no other references to these nations that I am aware of.[/quote']


After reading those 2 chapters, I'm a little confused why you say it is pre-trib when the wording in Ez. 39 (especially vs. 28,29) seems to coincide with Rev. 19, the end of the Trib. and the beginning of the Mill.

Ez. 39
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves

[bibletotingunslinger]

[quote="pneu-engine"][quote="Bakershalfdozen"]How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and[color=#BF0000][b] it is pre trib[/b][/color]. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?[/quote]
I was always taught that the first war was very soon after the Rapture but just before the Trib. So then, It's post Rapture but pre-trib.[/quote]



me2

[Jerry]

In Revelation 20, the Gog and Magog there are destroyed completely - and that is the end of the old heavens and the earth, as the Great White Throne judgment are next. In Ezekiel 38-39, only 5/6 of the army is destroyed:

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

They spend seven years gathering the weapons and armour of the dead. That doesn't fit in with Revelation. Also, Ezekiel describes certain nations - specific ones - allied together against Israel. Revelation describes the WHOLE world gathered against them - ie. the Gog and Magog there are not associated with a specific city or nation, but are all nations gathered together.

[Jerry]

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

I think the house of Israel will know who God is during the Millenium - and it is not something they find out at the very end of it.

[Jerry]

Chapter 37 - which many believe is picturing the regathering of Israel as a nation, back to their own land, and then being brought back to life - describes God's Spirit being poured on Israel. Even if someone thinks it fits with the end of the Trib, that still makes it a completely different battle than the one we see 1000 years later in Revelation 20.

[Bakershalfdozen]

I understand that Rev. 20 is the whole world and a different battle. I'm talking about Rev. 19 and Jesus' 2nd Coming. That passage seems to indicate that Israel is under attack and Jesus rescues them. Then the Millennium starts; to me that coincides with Ez. 39. I really don't know though which is why I am asking. Can you show me from Scripture why you believe the battle to be before the Trib.?

[Jerry]

Oaky, I see what you are looking for now. I am just heading to bed, so I will see if I can answer this tomorrow.

The big thing that comes to mind right away though is that Ezekiel is describing certain nations - that he clearly lists in those two chapters - that come against Israel; whereas Revelation 19 is describing Armageddon, which is the Antichrist gathering ALL nations of the world against Israel - the scope of Armageddon is way bigger than we see in Ezekiel - worldwide rather than just composing part of Asia.

Consider this too:

Ezekiel 38:10-14 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Israel will not be dwelling safely at the end of the Tribulation, after fleeing from the Antichrist's persecution for 3 1/2 years - this statement would fit a time of general worldwide peace, not a time of increased war and bloodshed.

Also, look at the description of the earthquake in chapter 38 compared with Revelation 19. Revelation describes all mountains and valleys being levelled, Ezekiel only refers to mountains and walls being thrown down. Ezekiel describes Israel's enemies as fighting among themselves and killing themselves, Revelation describes Jesus killing their enemies.

I forgot I was going to bed. Good night. ;)

[Bakershalfdozen]

Ok, yes I can see the differences. There still seems to be a few similarities though.

I guess I don't think of Israel as living in peace until anti-Christ makes a treaty with them. But in comparison, they are probably in a kind of "peace" right now with all their military might. And the cities don't have walls around them.

It is just all interesting because recently a Jewish television station broadcast a political map showing Gog and Magog and the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 in light of the very real thread of Iran and Iran's allies, namely Russia and most of the Arab world.


Slightly off-topic but do you all think "bows and arrows" and "horses" in Ezekiel means literal bows and arrows and horses or do you think it simply means weapons and conveyances?

[pneu-engine]

I think it's literal. This is just MHO and don't have anything to back it up...sorry. :ooops

[Jerry]

Sorry - you think what specifically is literal? Ezekiel 38-39, Revelation 19, Gog and Magog? I believe all these passages are literal too. However, I believe the names Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 are used symbolically in Revelation 20 - ie. are not the same nations as in Ezekiel - but will be like them, and will gather against Jerusalem to wipe them out. Just like Babylon in Revelation is more than likely not Babylon the city/empire, but very much like the Babylon in the OT (which we can study the OT to see what they stood for, what they represented, what they did, how they opposed God and the truth, etc.). Even if there were literal cities/nations in the Millenium called Gog and Magog, these terms encompass more than just those two areas - as it will be the whole world gathered against Jerusalem at the end of the 1000 years.

[Jerry]

I guess I don't think of Israel as living in peace until anti-Christ makes a treaty with them. But in comparison' date=' they are probably in a kind of "peace" right now with all their military might. And the cities don't have walls around them.[/quote']

The Bible teaches the tribulation period will catch the lost world in a time of peace and safety. Many passages refer to this. Here is one that immediately comes to mind:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.