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How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover? It wasn't limited to Italy and Israel. Rome controlled all of the known world at the time. So all the world means all the world. I doubt North & South America will be exempt.

"ge" can mean a region but it can also mean the entire globe and the inhabitants thereof. You are deducing that "earth" means Israel because you believe "world" to be referring only to the Roman Empire, meaning one section.

All means all. :thumb

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Thanks for your reply! :smile

To begin with....let's not go by Strong's, let's go by how the word is used by the Holy Spirit, and let's use logic.

Acts 17:24-31 is an excellent example of how the Holy Spirit uses precisely the word He wants that best conveys His meaning. Verse 24 reads, "?God that made the world (kosmos), and verse 26 reads, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth (cosmos)". But in verse 31 we read, "He will judge the world (oikoumenee) in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" It is clear that the Holy Spirit makes a distinction between "oikoumenee" and "kosmos". The "kosmos" was created by God, and man will inhabit the "kosmos", but God will judge the "oikoumenee", the inhabited world.

The point is this: we are speaking of the Word of God here. This passage makes it clear that the Holy Spirit uses oikoumenee and kosmos to denote two different things. The kosmos is the world, and the oikoumenee is the inhabited world. Let's not Strong's tell us differently without any scriptural evidence.

As for the three quotes from Rev, there is absolutely nothing in any of those passages that suggests that a portion of the world was not intended by the word "oikoumenee". The word is used of a portion of the world, and the root of the word means "to dwell, i.e. the inhabited world.

How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover


How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover? It wasn't limited to Italy and Israel. Rome controlled all of the known world at the time. So all the world means all the world. I doubt North & South America will be exempt.

Do you see the contradiction here? First you wrote that the Roman empire covered "the known world at that time', and I agree. But then you wrote that "all the world means all the world". The Roman empire did not cover the entire world, it covered the known world at that time. And that is exaclty how the Holy spirit used the word "oikounemee", i.e. to indicate the known world at that time.

And you have not addressed my original questions. If the tribulation is going to be world wide, why isn't there a safe place for everyone in the world? And if it's worldwide why bother to flee outside of Jerusalem? And let me add one more question, if the tribulation is going to be world wide, why is it called "Jacob's trouble"? hmmm...

Love,
Madeline

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So what's your point? All the known world in our day would be ALL the whole world. The context of the words usage in Revelation indicates that the whole world is in view - all the world will be gathered together against the Lord in the battle of Armageddon.

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Read the book of Revelation - the Antichrist rules the whole world, Babylon influences and corrupts the whole world, the false prophet deceives the whole world. The Antichrist fights against ALL of God's people during that time. The Jews who flee are protected, so the Devil cannot harm them. He gets even more angry and then goes on a rampage against the rest of God's people all over the world.

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I always thought so too but then I wondered how it fit the "peace and safety" scenario.

It's by comparison::::::

Immediately after the Rapture the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state, but the Antichrist comes on as the supreme "answer-man" and promises peace and safety so convincingly that everyone fully believes him. He is the ultimate politician. He'll promise the moon and won't even deliver any moon-dust. Little do they realize that he has a hidden agenda.

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I don't agree with anything except that the rapture will occur after the tribulation. My reasons are:

1) We read in Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The "hour of temptation" is of course, the tribulation. The question is, how will those who have patiently endured be kept from the tribulation.

We read in Rev. 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Also Rev. 12:13-14, "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." In my opinion, these passages answers the question of how believers will be kept from the tribulation. They will escape to "the place prepared for them".

Why would a place of escape from the tribulation be prepared if believers will be raptured before the tribulation?

2) Matthew 24:15-20, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" The reason for all this is given in the next verse (verse 21) which reads, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why would our Lord tell His disciples to flee when the tribulation begins if they were going to be raptured before it?

3) 1 Thess. 4:15-17, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
?".

When taken at face value, it is clear that Paul is saying that the rapture occurs at the time of the coming of Christ in the clouds. The second coming of Christ is after the tribulation, and therefore, the rapture, which occurs at His coming, is also after the tribulation. Btw, I'm no prophecy expert so go easy on me. :lol

I am soooo looking forward to the rebuttals! :clap:

Love,
Madeline


Every one of your points uses flawed logic.

We have an article, by Calvary, that fully explains why the Rapture and the Second Coming are two completely distinct occurrences and why the Rapture has to occur BEFORE the Tribulation. It's in the "Article" section.

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Every one of your points uses flawed logic.

We have an article, by Calvary, that fully explains why the Rapture and the Second Coming are two completely distinct occurrences and why the Rapture has to occur BEFORE the Tribulation. It's in the "Article" section.


I want YOU (P.E.) to show me "point by point" just how flawed my logic is, ok?

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Read the book of Revelation - the Antichrist rules the whole world' date=' Babylon influences and corrupts the whole world, the false prophet deceives the whole world. The Antichrist fights against ALL of God's people during that time. The Jews who flee are protected, so the Devil cannot harm them. He gets even more angry and then goes on a rampage against the rest of God's people all over the world.[/quote']

Does that really make sense that the Jews in Israel are protected and no other believer is protected?

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May I add that we must remember, when we read the NT that it was written in Greek. So the translation is often times more of an interpretation, which being of man, may be right and may be incorrect. Therefore, it behooves us to consider the fact that when we read of the earth and the world we must know which Greek word is being used if we are to come to a correct understanding.

Love,
Madeline

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Does that really make sense that the Jews in Israel are protected and no other believer is protected?


Actually, no, the Jews in Israel are not protected. The Jews are to flee to Petra or Bozrah and there they will be protected. It makes sense because it is what the Bible teaches - they are protected in the place God tells them to flee to, the place He has prepared for them (Revelation 12). There are also 144,000 sealed Jews that will be protected as they travel all over the world evangelizing. Why only them? Because that is God's plan - it makes sense because that is how He planned it.

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I want YOU (P.E.) to show me "point by point" just how flawed my logic is, ok?

There is no need. Others (Jessica, Jerry, and Calvary) who are far more eloquent than I have already told you many times over, but you are far and away too stubborn to receive it. :Green

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There is no need. Others (Jessica, Jerry, and Calvary) who are far more eloquent than I have already told you many times over, but you are far and away too stubborn to receive it. :Green


Such a wise answer ........

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Bump!

I just heard a very interesting message...Radio program...Search the Scriptures Daily with Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon on Ezekiel 38 & 39 being Armageddon. Here is the link:

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/2007

Click on the audio link. You can d/l it or stream it.

After listening to this message, I believe it just might be possible that Ezekiel 38 & 39 could be Armageddon. Any thoughts?

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I had skimmed through part of an article by them on this theme (perhaps the transcript from the radio episode), and I noticed some problems with his conclusion. The biggest reason why I believe that those two chapters cannot be referring to Armageddon is because 19 teaches that ALL of those who go against the Lord are destroyed, yet Ezekiel indicates 1/6th of those armies remain. Plus, Armageddon is the WHOLE world coming against Israel, whereas Ezekiel portrays about 10 specific nations.

Revelation 19:17-21 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

There are certainly some similarities between these two battles, but the differences show they cannot be the same. Consider also these verses:

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

These verses indicate that the heathen around the nation of Israel would come to know that it was the Lord that fought against the armies - however, if all the lost of the world are destroyed, there would be no heathen to be made aware of who the Lord is as a result of that battle. Only the saved will enter the Millenium, which starts right after that battle - all the heathen will be destoyed by the Lord, and only the saved will remain.

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I'm going to have to study it further. In the meantime, I've listened to 3 more messages on Armageddon, based on the prophecies in Ezekiel 38 & 39. Here are those links:

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/1817

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/1851

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/1843

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

When does this occur?

Do you think that God will protect the land of Israel during the Tribulation as He did during the time when the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, living in Goshen? All of Egypt was affected by the plagues, but Goshen was not. Just curious.

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The end time wars will start shortly after the signing of the covenant by 666 and

many. (1 Thessalonians 5:3 ) The first phase of the wars will be Egypt the king of the

south attacking 666 and Syria the king of the north attacking 666 also. Daniel 11:36-

43a. 666 will counter attack north of Israel first destroying the local Arabs and then

will pass through Israel to destroy Egypt. I believe the actual original attack is on

Israel, but is considered to be on 666 because of the treaty. 666 will be leading the

kingdom of antichrist which is called Babylon in (Revelation 16:19). I wondered

why would Egypt and Syria think they could defeat Israel and 666. I believe they

expected Russia (Magog) to help but God turned Russia back. (Ezekiel 38:4) and the

rapture of the church will have weakened the home land of 666 because the

Christians have been removed before God sent strong delusion to the formerly

Christian nations. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) When God puts a hook in the jaw of

Russia and it comes from the north, God

will also raise a great nation Babylon from the other side of the earth to fight for

Israel. (Jeremiah 6:21-22). I believe that great nation is America, who is now the

most Christian nation on earth and who will be the most deceived nation by 666

because of God's judgment after the Holy spirit and the church are taken out of the

way (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12). Notice that 666 will do his will in the most strong

holds or strongest nation. (Daniel 11:39-40) before the war starts at the end. This

part of the war is the first seal, when 666 comes on a white horse as a peace

enforcer because God gave him the crown in the Christian nations. The red horse

and 2nd seal is the attack by Magog (Russia) and its allies listed in Ezekiel 38:1-12

on Israel and 666 who has moved his army from Egypt to Israel when he heard that

Russia was coming from the north and Persia (Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan) is

coming from the east and Libya and Ethiopia come from from behind see Daniel 11:43b-45 KJV

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Interesting and imaginative.

Actually Dan 11 was fulfilled before the birth of Christ. The kings of the North were of Antioch and the South, Egypt, untill Rome superseded Antioch as King of the North.

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Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed,36 And

Invicta verse 35 is a transitional verse from then to the end of time. Daniel 11:36-45 and 12:1-13 are discussing the time of Jacob's Trouble and the antichrist who will divide the land of Israel.

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As I said, "Imaginative."

The whole of chapter 11 fills in the details of Daniels 62 weeks, of whiich only the beginning and end are given in the earlier prophecy. 7 weeks from the decree of Cyrus during which the "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." 62 weeks from then till the Messiah, which ended with the annointing of messiah at His baptism, the 70th week was the ministry of Messiah, confirming the covenenant with the Jews, in the middle of which he caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, by his death on the cross. This ministry continued with the Jews till the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles.

Daniel 11:35-45, does not jump forward but continues to the time of Messiah. Daniel 12:1 Daniels people here are Jewish believers who escaped from Jerusalem at the time of the Roman conquest where not one christian perished due to them following the Lord's command in Matt 24: 15-21, Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21: 20-23.

No jumping forward to the Popes, as some say, or to some future antichrist.

Edited by Invicta

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Invicta,

When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, Libya and Ethiopia did not attack the Romans and the Persians did not help Israel from

the east.

But in Ezekiel 38:1-12 Persia, Libya, and Ethiopia are all allies of Russia when it comes against Israel in the end time wars.

Daniel 11:36-45 is describing the wars of the seal judgments at the end of time as indicated in Daniel 11:35

Edited by Eric Stahl

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30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The Roman ships bringing the Roman General who drew a line in the sand and dared Antiochus to cross it. Ant returned and had intelligence with the helllenisers amongs the jews.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

I am not sure what arms shall stand on his part, means, but it clearly refers to the Romans, who were "they" who later poluted the sanctuary, and placed the abomination that maketh desolate.


32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 1),Antiochus. 2). the Maccabees and those who fought with them.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. The Maccabees and those who fought with them and also those who followed them until:-

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Herod

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. The desire of women, the children murdered by herod when he tried to destroy the Messiah
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. The God of forces, Ceasar, the man god who Herod honoured with many gifts, temples, Cities named ceasarea, and Caesars Games, to be held every five years with which he provaided rich prizes to the first three contestants. This seemed to be the first games that such prizes were awarded, before that only the winner received a laurel crown.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. Caesar again
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. The time of the end of the Greek kingdoms. The king of the south Cleopatra (and Anthony) pushed against Octavius with Herod's help, but Octavius came againnst them like a whirlwind with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. Octavius got control over the riches of Cleapatra although he thought she would escape with them or destray them.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. Back to Herod. Tidings from the North (Rome) troubled him as he was told that his sons were plotting against him. Tidings from the East troubled him when the wise men came seeking the newborn King of the Jews. He went forth with fury and destroted many infants in Bethlehem.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. He died a painful death with none to mourn. He ordered that many leading Jews were to be imprisoned and exexuted at the time of his death, so that there would be mourning when he died, but his orders were not carried out. This takes us to the time of Messiah, and the completion of the 69 weeks. The complete not part of the 69 weeks is in that chapter.

Edited by Invicta

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When I was young, I wondered why none of the Arab nations around Israel were listed as allies of Magog or Russia in Ezekiel 38:7-12. After I understood Daniel 11:36-43a, I understood that the antichrist will destroy the Arab neighbors of Israel before God puts the hook in the Jaw of Russia and draws it to Israel for judgment in Daniel 11:43b-45.

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Many Christians have studied this out over the years, decades and centuries. There has been no consensus as to the exact meaning of this. We can speculate, but often our speculation will be tainted by the times we live in.

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