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How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and it is pre trib. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?

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In Ezekiel 38-39, we see Gog and Magog coming against Israel - just prior to the Tribulation period or at the start of it. Then in Revelation 20, we see symbolic Gog and Magog ( - not the same as the OT nations - just like Revelation 17-19 refers to symbolic endtime Babylon, not the same as the OT Babylon, but following in its example and spiritual footsteps). There are no other references to these nations that I am aware of.

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and[color=#BF0000][b] it is pre trib[/b][/color]. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?[/quote]
I was always taught that the first war was very soon after the Rapture but just before the Trib. So then, It's post Rapture but pre-trib.

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I have some commentary written on the subject, and I think the Jack Van Impe Bible has the best on this.
Many have written on the subject of Gog and Magog(Russia) attaching Israel, and the timing of this event is in the end times. I have been trying to post this but,,, not working,,, I know it ain't much, hope it helps.
so far I see no one has posted yet but maybe others are and that is stopping me from posting this.

Ezekiel 38:3
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:


Ezekiel 38:15
And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Ezekiel 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Ezekiel 39:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

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In Ezekiel 38-39' date=' we see Gog and Magog coming against Israel - just prior to the Tribulation period or at the start of it. Then in Revelation 20, we see symbolic Gog and Magog ( - not the same as the OT nations - just like Revelation 17-19 refers to symbolic endtime Babylon, not the same as the OT Babylon, but following in its example and spiritual footsteps). There are no other references to these nations that I am aware of.[/quote']


After reading those 2 chapters, I'm a little confused why you say it is pre-trib when the wording in Ez. 39 (especially vs. 28,29) seems to coincide with Rev. 19, the end of the Trib. and the beginning of the Mill.

Ez. 39
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves

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[quote="pneu-engine"][quote="Bakershalfdozen"]How many prophecies are there concerning Gog and Magog? It is my understanding that Gog and Magog come against Israel twice: post trib and post mill. Today I read that some people believe there is a 3rd attempt (actually 1st in their minds) and[color=#BF0000][b] it is pre trib[/b][/color]. They believe this war will usher in the anti-Christ and tribulation period. Anyone else ever heard of this and know what Scriptures these ppl use to back this up?[/quote]
I was always taught that the first war was very soon after the Rapture but just before the Trib. So then, It's post Rapture but pre-trib.[/quote]



me2

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In Revelation 20, the Gog and Magog there are destroyed completely - and that is the end of the old heavens and the earth, as the Great White Throne judgment are next. In Ezekiel 38-39, only 5/6 of the army is destroyed:

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

They spend seven years gathering the weapons and armour of the dead. That doesn't fit in with Revelation. Also, Ezekiel describes certain nations - specific ones - allied together against Israel. Revelation describes the WHOLE world gathered against them - ie. the Gog and Magog there are not associated with a specific city or nation, but are all nations gathered together.

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Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

I think the house of Israel will know who God is during the Millenium - and it is not something they find out at the very end of it.

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Chapter 37 - which many believe is picturing the regathering of Israel as a nation, back to their own land, and then being brought back to life - describes God's Spirit being poured on Israel. Even if someone thinks it fits with the end of the Trib, that still makes it a completely different battle than the one we see 1000 years later in Revelation 20.

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I understand that Rev. 20 is the whole world and a different battle. I'm talking about Rev. 19 and Jesus' 2nd Coming. That passage seems to indicate that Israel is under attack and Jesus rescues them. Then the Millennium starts; to me that coincides with Ez. 39. I really don't know though which is why I am asking. Can you show me from Scripture why you believe the battle to be before the Trib.?

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Oaky, I see what you are looking for now. I am just heading to bed, so I will see if I can answer this tomorrow.

The big thing that comes to mind right away though is that Ezekiel is describing certain nations - that he clearly lists in those two chapters - that come against Israel; whereas Revelation 19 is describing Armageddon, which is the Antichrist gathering ALL nations of the world against Israel - the scope of Armageddon is way bigger than we see in Ezekiel - worldwide rather than just composing part of Asia.

Consider this too:

Ezekiel 38:10-14 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Israel will not be dwelling safely at the end of the Tribulation, after fleeing from the Antichrist's persecution for 3 1/2 years - this statement would fit a time of general worldwide peace, not a time of increased war and bloodshed.

Also, look at the description of the earthquake in chapter 38 compared with Revelation 19. Revelation describes all mountains and valleys being levelled, Ezekiel only refers to mountains and walls being thrown down. Ezekiel describes Israel's enemies as fighting among themselves and killing themselves, Revelation describes Jesus killing their enemies.

I forgot I was going to bed. Good night. ;)

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Ok, yes I can see the differences. There still seems to be a few similarities though.

I guess I don't think of Israel as living in peace until anti-Christ makes a treaty with them. But in comparison, they are probably in a kind of "peace" right now with all their military might. And the cities don't have walls around them.

It is just all interesting because recently a Jewish television station broadcast a political map showing Gog and Magog and the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 in light of the very real thread of Iran and Iran's allies, namely Russia and most of the Arab world.


Slightly off-topic but do you all think "bows and arrows" and "horses" in Ezekiel means literal bows and arrows and horses or do you think it simply means weapons and conveyances?

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Sorry - you think what specifically is literal? Ezekiel 38-39, Revelation 19, Gog and Magog? I believe all these passages are literal too. However, I believe the names Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 are used symbolically in Revelation 20 - ie. are not the same nations as in Ezekiel - but will be like them, and will gather against Jerusalem to wipe them out. Just like Babylon in Revelation is more than likely not Babylon the city/empire, but very much like the Babylon in the OT (which we can study the OT to see what they stood for, what they represented, what they did, how they opposed God and the truth, etc.). Even if there were literal cities/nations in the Millenium called Gog and Magog, these terms encompass more than just those two areas - as it will be the whole world gathered against Jerusalem at the end of the 1000 years.

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I guess I don't think of Israel as living in peace until anti-Christ makes a treaty with them. But in comparison' date=' they are probably in a kind of "peace" right now with all their military might. And the cities don't have walls around them.[/quote']

The Bible teaches the tribulation period will catch the lost world in a time of peace and safety. Many passages refer to this. Here is one that immediately comes to mind:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

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Sorry - you think what specifically is literal? Ezekiel 38-39' date=' Revelation 19, Gog and Magog? I believe all these passages are literal too. [/quote']

Jim was referring to my question about bows, arrows and horses. Literal or depicting weapons and conveyances?

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That's right. :thumb

Also, so many times I have heard Bible teachers tell us that the Trib begins immediately following the Rapture. I don't think so. My thinking goes like this:::::::

#1. Rapture::: imminent, and due at any moment.

#2. Period of confusion of unknown duration::::: the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state since the Holy Spirit steps back out of the way from preventing sin from going too far, as He is doing now. It is during this period that Russia sets out to wage war on Israel. Russia wants the Dead Sea for the fertilizer-minerals, gold, and other precious metals dissolved in it. From what I read the Dead Sea is a veritable gold mine.

#3. A supreme "answer-man" is found that can right all the wrongs and solve all the world's problems. The world accepts him but little realizes that this is the Anti-Christ. Even if they do know, they care not one iota. When this Antichrist is brought forth the tribulation begins.

I have to go dig up my notes and things. :Green

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That's right. :thumb

Also, so many times I have heard Bible teachers tell us that the Trib begins immediately following the Rapture. I don't think so. My thinking goes like this:::::::

#1. Rapture::: imminent, and due at any moment.

#2. Period of confusion of unknown duration::::: the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state since the Holy Spirit steps back out of the way from preventing sin from going too far, as He is doing now. It is during this period that Russia sets out to wage war on Israel. Russia wants the Dead Sea for the fertilizer-minerals, gold, and other precious metals dissolved in it. From what I read the Dead Sea is a veritable gold mine.

#3. A supreme "answer-man" is found that can right all the wrongs and solve all the world's problems. The world accepts him but little realizes that this is the Anti-Christ. Even if they do know, they care not one iota. When this Antichrist is brought forth the tribulation begins.

I have to go dig up my notes and things. :Green


I don't agree with anything except that the rapture will occur after the tribulation. My reasons are:

1) We read in Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The "hour of temptation" is of course, the tribulation. The question is, how will those who have patiently endured be kept from the tribulation.

We read in Rev. 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Also Rev. 12:13-14, "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." In my opinion, these passages answers the question of how believers will be kept from the tribulation. They will escape to "the place prepared for them".

Why would a place of escape from the tribulation be prepared if believers will be raptured before the tribulation?

2) Matthew 24:15-20, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" The reason for all this is given in the next verse (verse 21) which reads, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why would our Lord tell His disciples to flee when the tribulation begins if they were going to be raptured before it?

3) 1 Thess. 4:15-17, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
?".

When taken at face value, it is clear that Paul is saying that the rapture occurs at the time of the coming of Christ in the clouds. The second coming of Christ is after the tribulation, and therefore, the rapture, which occurs at His coming, is also after the tribulation. Btw, I'm no prophecy expert so go easy on me. :lol

I am soooo looking forward to the rebuttals! :clap:

Love,
Madeline

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1) The woman is Israel, not the church. The place prepared is for Israel.

2) As you are so fond of pointing out, :Green to whom was the discourse given? Also the Lord mentioned Daniel's prophecy. This is given to the Jews and the messenger told Daniel that the prophecy was determined upon his people and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem). This time is also called, "The time of Jacob's trouble". These are all Jewish references and have nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.

3) When taken at face value, it says that during the rapture the believers will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At the 2nd coming Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in half. Also, Enoch prophesied and Revelation mentions that Jesus will be coming back with 10 thousands of His saints.

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I believe those passages are to be taken literally. I offer this as a possible modern day fulfillment, which takes into account the definition of the word used.

The definition of the Hebrew word is "from 2686; properly, a piercer, i.e. an arrow; by implication, a wound; figuratively, (of God) thunder-bolt; (by interchange for 6086) the shaft of a spear."

2686 means "properly, to chop into, pierce or sever; hence, to curtail, to distribute (into ranks); as denom. from 2671, to shoot an arrow."

The "arrows" could be missiles - ie. something shot by man, that pierces through men, armour, tanks, etc.

This is the definition of the word for bow: "from 7185 in the original sense (of 6983) of bending: a bow, for shooting (hence, figuratively, strength) or the iris."

I believes these weapons are real - missiles and missile launchers could still fit the description, as the weapon that is shot and what is used to shoot it out.

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1) The woman is Israel, not the church. The place prepared is for Israel.

2) As you are so fond of pointing out, :Green to whom was the discourse given? Also the Lord mentioned Daniel's prophecy. This is given to the Jews and the messenger told Daniel that the prophecy was determined upon his people and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem). This time is also called, "The time of Jacob's trouble". These are all Jewish references and have nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.

3) When taken at face value, it says that during the rapture the believers will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At the 2nd coming Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in half. Also, Enoch prophesied and Revelation mentions that Jesus will be coming back with 10 thousands of His saints.


Hi,

Many thanks for responding, Jess. :smile

Yes, indeed, the woman is Israel and the Lord was talking to Israel. I don't understand the point of number three, but I will comment on the first two. :tum

Rev. 3:10 reads, ".....I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth".

The Greek word translated "try" means "test". So this is obviously in reference to the tribulation.

The Greek word translated "world" is oikomenee". It is from the verb oikeo, which means "to dwell". It is always used in the Bible in reference to the Roman empire, never of the entire earth.

The Greek word translated "earth" is "ge". It is used of the earth and it is also used of a specific land, i.e. Israel. Obviously, since the testing will be only in part of the earth (i.e. the oikoumenee), in this verse "ge" cannot refer to the entire earth, and must therefore refer to the land that will be tested, i.e.Israel.

Let's consider what we do agree on. We agree that Israel will be provided a safe place, and we agree that Christ warned Israel to flee. If the tribulation is to cover the entire earth why wouldn't the same protection be afforded the entire earth?

Consider also that Revelation is the most Israel centered book in the NT. It is that book that tells us the most about the tribulation. It doesn't make sense to apply it to the entire world. I look forward to your reply. :)

Love,
Madeline

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The Greek word translated "world" is oikomenee". It is from the verb oikeo, which means "to dwell". It is always used in the Bible in reference to the Roman empire, never of the entire earth.


Strong's does not say it ONLY refers to the Roman empire, but "specially, the Roman empire." The three times the word is used in the book of Revelation, it refers to the whole world. This word is where we get our English word "ecumenical." The tribulation period is a time of testing for the whole world - whether they will choose Christ or the Antichrist, truth or lies.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

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Christ doesn't tell Israel to flee, He tells those who are in Jerusalem to flee. Why? Because that is when the Antichrist is defiling the temple, destroying Jerusalem and starting to slaughter the Jews in that area.

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