Can we talk about worms w/o opening the can??

[bzmomo7]

Before I was saved, I listened to rock music, after I got saved I listened to "Christian rock music"/CCM, later I gave that all up. Right now, I do not listen to anything at home--just sing in church or sing a hymn to myself at home. I do like music, but am uncertain just where to draw the line. I went and read the bigger threads you have on CCM. I understand that rock, country, rap, and the like are not the type of music we should be listening to, but what about the finer details of music? Obviously, you can take a hymn and play it in a style that is NOT right. I do not have a musical background and I do not read music--how does one discern say, without just going only with hymns (sung or instrumental) that are only obviously played/sung exactly like what we do in church? Another question: not long ago, I come across someone who played hymn music in such a way that it sounded like flowery, saloon music (you know, like from an old western)--I most definitely didn't like the sound of it, but is that sort of playing of a hymn ok? I found this link to a church that goes into 6 sermons of detail about how to discern music: http://www.libertygospeltracts.com/lbc/ ... music.html
Some of it I understand, some of it I do not....it is quite technical--I'm wondering if their view on music is typical for IFB or is it different? It does seem hard to find info. beyond the obvious woes of Christian Rock--any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. BTW, I am not looking for a debate here, as I saw on some other threads (one was locked by the admin.) if you feel like you want to argue then you should do it elsewhere--I'd really like to just see how people determine what is pleasing to the Lord to listen to and what is not--based on the music aspect, not necessarily the words. (words are the obvious part) Thanks

[bzmomo7]

:lol: O-kay, open the can, if you must......but please don't throw the worms. :Bleh

[LAF]

Well I like music ,I don't read music or play any instrument though .I don't like all type music and I am sure that if I were to list what I do like I would be considered liberal .

[bzmomo7]

Well I like music ' date='I don't read music or play any instrument though .I don't like all type music and I am sure that if I were to list what I do like I would be considered liberal .[/quote']

Well, you see, that is just it. I don't understand that part. IFB churches make it well known they are against rock music (with good understanding), rap, regular country music I'll even hear people give a thumbs down to--which is fine. But like you said, if you give a list of what you listen to--someone may think you're liberal. I think there are groups that say are "Gospel" that some may or may not approve of, and I've heard people say they are against CCM--how exactly do you define contemporary Christian music? I realize this is hairy, but I don't understand how a Christian is expected to have discernment without distinct guidelines. Know what I mean? The liberty gospel tract link I put in my original post dissects things out by what beats are emphasized in music (2 and 4 or beat 1)....the speaker even covers classical music and says that not all of it is great. That is fine, I basically listened to what he had to say, because I haven't seen much info. beyond the rock music issue. It was interesting, but I don't know enough about music to grasp if his point of view is accurate or not. That's where I thought the rest of you could be of some help. It wouldn't be right for someone to pick on what you listen to LAF if they can't tell you how they distinctly arrived at their basis for what is exceptable and what is not. I guess that is why it didn't bother me to ask this question.

[kevinmiller]

I think the beat that the rock beat is on is kind of a nonsensical argument. I attempted to use it for years and all it did was confuse me and allow me to listen to rock music by justifying "what beat it was on." And how is someone supposed to know what beat it is on unless you are musically inclined?

My belief is that when there is a repetitive rock beat present in the song, it is wrong. Anytime the music promotes any kind of sensuality in feeling or action, which includes rock as well as many jazz rhythms. Many times you can feel whether the music is right or wrong, but I don't know if that is universal though since I can feel music to begin with. You'd be surprised how most songs today will have that rock beat present, whether hard or soft, no matter what song or genre. It's because it appeals to the flesh.

[HappyChristian]

bzmom - here is a link to the blog of one of our pastors. He is very knowledgeable about music. There are several articles on this page, and you can read the complete article by clicking on the comments. Don't know how helpful it will be, but hope it is some.

http://jeffvoegtlin.com/?s=music

[bzmomo7]

I think the beat that the rock beat is on is kind of a nonsensical argument. I attempted to use it for years and all it did was confuse me and allow me to listen to rock music by justifying "what beat it was on." And how is someone supposed to know what beat it is on unless you are musically inclined?
My belief is that when there is a repetitive rock beat present in the song, it is wrong. Anytime the music promotes any kind of sensuality in feeling or action, which includes rock as well as many jazz rhythms. Many times you can feel whether the music is right or wrong, but I don't know if that is universal though since I can feel music to begin with. You'd be surprised how most songs today will have that rock beat present, whether hard or soft, no matter what song or genre. It's because it appeals to the flesh.

That is why I haven't listened to anything in a long time. I am afraid of my ignorance, I guess. I understand a beat can get you moving, but there is a point at which I cannot discern musically if it is ok or not....some Gospel music seems to fall into this category for me. What basically moved me to give up "Christian rock music" was all that it is associated with...........wow, especially today!! I totally croaked when I read what some of the musicians said, who they associated with/the secular music they listened to etc. I checked everything out from secular sources as well. I didn't want people who knew I was a Christian to think I was just like those people--approved of the things they did, and believed exactly the way they did. If you want a real enlightenment on that, go on-line and look up those people who do the "battlecry" concerts--there are videos on-line as well.......or look up the videos of Bill Hybels having a U-2 concert at their church (along with all the other "Christian" rock bands) and his later interview with lead singer Bono and his idea the world operates on karma. What confusion.

[bzmomo7]

bzmom - here is a link to the blog of one of our pastors. He is very knowledgeable about music. There are several articles on this page, and you can read the complete article by clicking on the comments. Don't know how helpful it will be, but hope it is some.

http://jeffvoegtlin.com/?s=music

Thanks, I will check it out!!!

[PreacherBen]

This is hard to nail down in a short form. There are many points on which to judge for example:

1. The life of the singer. Willie Nelson, not in good standing with the church, singing, 'Revive Us Again.' Here, we have an obvious wicked man singing this great hymn. I am going to avoid this because of his influence on the music industry as well as the hearer.
2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2. The testimony of "supposed" Christian musician. This applies more to those in the Southern Gospel, CCM, etc., genre. They proclaim salvation (which is between them and the Lord,) but they have, sometimes, long hair, which is unscriptural, and questionable allegiances. Amy Grant singing with the lead singer from the 70's/80's hard rock band Chicago.
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? My children a watching and listening. Is this what I want them to be? Or if I am single, is this what I want those with whom I fellowship to be like?

3. The type of music. Honest question here: Where did Rock, Pop, Rap, Country, etc. come from...the church? No, in most cases bars, clubs, honky tonks, etc. It transmigrated into the gospel music industry, found acceptance by the church, and ended up in our music cabinet. Did acceptance make it o.k.?
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

4. The style in which it is played. Is it moving my heart to Spirit-filled worship of Christ, or is it stimulating my flesh like the juke joint stuff I forsook, with it's accompanying habits. My old flesh loves the hippy rock I used to listen to. I have to discipline it to leave that stuff alone. When I hear a driving beat in a "gospel" song, my flesh still gets revved up by that beat. Maybe it's just me, but it is something to consider.
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

I'm sure there are other things to consider, and some may disagree wholeheartedly with what I have said. I used to be a lead vocalist in Heavy Metal type rock. I remember the spirit that was in it. I remember the influence it had on my life.

Humble repentance and a sweet walk with Christ is the best way to get clear communication with the Spirit of God and to know what is pleasing to Him.

MHO,
Bro. Ben

[LAF]

I know even among family members we seem to have all different ways to explain what they like or don't like ,
Like I said I don't even want to list what I listen to because its sure to offend someone .

[bzmomo7]

Thanks, Preacher Ben, I did think that was helpful! I am also going to print down below a commentary from the website above that Happy Christian pointed me to. I'm printing it for the benefit of someone else coming to OB looking for info. Here it is:

Music Associations
Posted on January 1st, 2005 by Jeff Voegtlin
In my past five years as the band director for our church and academy and the teacher of our practical music class for preacher boys, I have often been asked by many people, parents and students, how to choose what the right kind of music is, or how to know whether a song is good or bad. I have read many articles and listened to many sermons about this issue, and I realize that there are many who have tried to help in this area, but I must add my voice to all those who have called for purity and holiness in a Christian?s music. At Fairhaven Baptist Church we believe that each song and every ?performance? or ministration of that song should be judged on its own merit. This means that it can be difficult to just come up with hard and fast rules about which songs are good and which songs are bad. If we could do that it would solve a lot of problems in churches and youth groups.

All music must be judged on its own merit. This is the only way that a Christian can truly be right and consistent with his music standards. I read recently that Christians should only listen to sacred music. The point of the lesson was furthered to explain that even classical music should not be listened to by Christians. The man who wrote the lesson said that classical music that had been set aside (sanctified) by sacred words was acceptable. It is a good thing he said that - many of our sacred hymns are sung to classical tunes. The logic of his reasoning is faulty, though. This is exactly the same argument that CCM musicians make when they claim that the message of their words make the sound of the music they use to convey it acceptable. This is just an example of the difficulty in making hard and fast rules about our music and being consistent.

There are a lot of different areas of music that can be judged, but I believe that one that is most revealing is the associations that the music has. When we discuss the idea of music?s associations we must be careful not to be unbalanced. Many of you would recognize the argument that is rightly used when we say that music is not neutral. CCM musicians try to say that the music is neutral, the message sanctifies it. We then would argue, sure the individual elements of music are neutral but when blended together by skilled musicians they assume a moral or immoral character. Just as the letters of the alphabet are neutral until blended to produce good or bad literature. The lines and colors of paint and canvass are neutral until blended to produce good or bad art. The chisel in the sculptor?s hand, and the granite he beats upon are neutral until the shape he produces comes forth. When many speak about music?s associations they make a hard and fast rule that if a song has been written or popularized by an ungodly or ecumenical, worldly person it is unacceptable to sing or use that music. This is an unbalanced, inconsistent proposition.

If we use the same argument that is rightly used to show that music is not neutral, I believe we can see this inconsistency. If a man produced a work of good literature and then later wrote something ungodly, does that mean the good literature is now unacceptable to read. There are many Christians who have studied the good parts of Geoffrey Chaucer?s Canterbury Tales, but recognize that parts of those tales are grossly immoral. Many Christians would enjoy and possibly own a replica of Michaelangelo?s Last Supper. It is a masterpiece of artwork. But Michaelangelo also painted masterpieces with nudity in them. Does this mean that no Christian should own a portrait of the Last Supper? In each realm we see the absurdity of trying to say that a certain person makes the product good or bad. The same is true in music.

The association that Christians should be concerned with in their music is with what is the SOUND of the music associated. There is some music which is acceptable to listen to but is not appropriate for certain situations. Music associated with the circus is not necessarily wrong, but it should not be played in church. Marching music is not necessarily wrong, but most of the time should not be played in church. While some classical music is not right, most is written according to good music principles and is wholesome to listen to. But we do not go to church to listen to classical music.

The sounds of other music is obviously associated with the world. This music is totally unnacceptable. The question then comes to this: what makes music sound worldly? The worldly sound is produced by several elements. The most obvious is the rock beat. Many songs do not have booming drum parts, but the beat is still a worldly rhythm and should not be listened to. Another element is sliding or scooping in the melody. Studies show that this is the way that secular musicians convey the sensual feelings of their music. A Christian should not listen to sensual, fleshly music. The last element I will address is a sloppiness in performance or ?ministry.? There are musicians who sing ?to the glory of God,? but do it without decency or order and with confusion. The Bible says to ?play skillfully with a loud noise.? Music that sounds like a few people got together just to ?praise the Lord? and is not ministered with skill and propriety should not be in the Christian?s musical diet.

All Christian music should have words that honor God, and the more spiritually rich and deep the words, the better the music. None of a Christian?s music should sound worldly, whether it is sacred music or not.

[kevinmiller]

Majesty Music offers a lot of good books on the subject. I can personally recommend Kimberly Smith's and Dan Lucarini's books. I heard them both speak at a conference where I first made the choice to reject rock music and I have read one of Lucarini's books. Another good book that I can recommend is this one: http://store.iblp.org/products/CARM/

[bzmomo7]

Majesty Music offers a lot of good books on the subject. I can personally recommend Kimberly Smith's and Dan Lucarini's books. I heard them both speak at a conference where I first made the choice to reject rock music and I have read one of Lucarini's books. Another good book that I can recommend is this one: http://store.iblp.org/products/CARM/

Great, I will see if I can take a look at this as well. I really appreciate all of the responses. Obviously, you've waded through all of this already yourself.....it is no doubt a lot of work to do all of the research. The KJB vs. MV was real easy to research, as was Christian rock music, but these grayer areas have not been as easy for me to get info. on. I think it is real important to leave a trail on this thread here as well, so that it will be easy to point others in the right direction easily--not to mention derailing those who come on just to argue about rock music. Thanks for all the help.

[dwayner79]

Does the music point you to Christ?

[bzmomo7]

Does the music point you to Christ?

If this were the only standard I used, it would definitely rule out much.........including classical music.