What do you think...

[Anon]

I'm not saying that they must touch shoulders every second, but the focus and orientation of the church should be towards families, not individuals. The church is a family unit and it should be made up of families working and serving together. Instead of a myriad of programs that results in a disjointed church family where 20% of the people do 80% of the work and leave the church because of a feeling of lack of appreciation or burnout, we should do away with about 80% of the programs and just focus on the family and turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers. That should be our focus. Fellowship and building relationships while strengthening our families as a single unit that can be united to face the battles of life.

Every church, every area is different. In Korea, your idea may be perfect. Here, families are already disjointed and malfunctioning esp in larger cities. People need to learn Christ before they can even be more united.

It would take too long to sit here and explain why what we do actually HELPS the people in our church, and in our community, but lets just suffice to say that just like every child needs a different method of raising them, every church may need a slightly different ministerial approach. I'm not talking worldly or anything, I'm just talking about the focus and method, within Biblical definition, that is used.

[Jerry]

The focus of the church has become the programs. "How can we best teach this specific group in the allotted time that we are allowed?" Rather than on fellowship and edification' date=' the church has become all about attempting to educate people.[/quote']

What's wrong with that? Children don't get too much out of sermons geared for adults - it is beneficial for them to get some time where they are taught Bible stories and doctrine at their level.



That's assuming they are growing up in a Christian home where the parents are sound in Bible doctrine.

Hm, how can you can spiritual maturity without learning sound Bible doctrine? You can't.

[kevinmiller]

What's wrong with that? Children don't get too much out of sermons geared for adults - it is beneficial for them to get some time where they are taught Bible stories and doctrine at their level.

But that's just my point! Sermons shouldn't be geared to adults, but to families. And the sermon should not be the lifeblood of the church. Fellowship ought to be a big part of a Sunday service, and not just "hand-shaking time." That's not fellowship and it doesn't build relationships.

That's assuming they are growing up in a Christian home where the parents are sound in Bible doctrine.

Hm, how can you can spiritual maturity without learning sound Bible doctrine? You can't.

Which is also part of my point. The church should be working to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the children to their fathers. If, through discipling relationships, men are maturing in the Lord, they will lead their family in sound doctrine. The church needs to focus on the family as a whole, not on individual parts. The family is one unit and it is worth more than the sum of its parts. The answer isn't to teach the children because parents aren't doing it, the answer is to equip parents and equip families to train and learn on their own.

[Anon]

Well Kevin, come back in ten years after you've pastored and lets have this discussion again. :lol:

[Jerry]

But that's just my point! Sermons shouldn't be geared to adults' date=' but to families. And the sermon should not be the lifeblood of the church. Fellowship ought to be a big part of a Sunday service, and not just "hand-shaking time." That's not fellowship and it doesn't build relationships.[/quote']

There are more adults in most churches than children - therefore it makes more sense to gear the overall preaching to their level. Sunday School hour means we can teach the children where they are at. That is one service out of four in my church - it is not like the children are missing out on anything.

Yes, we can have points in a message where we relate to the children - but to dumb down the Word of God so that children get as much out of a message would mean the adults were not fed too much. If the adults are fed, they can feed their children more at home, even explain the parts of the sermon the children did not understand.

[kevinmiller]

Well Kevin' date=' come back in ten years after you've pastored and lets have this discussion again. [/quote']
It is working, though! People are using it with great success. Many homeschooling families have left the church because of some of the issues that I have mentioned. These are things that the church needs to change in order to have a greater focus on building strong families. I didn't dream this stuff up myself.

The father and mother are responsible for their children's spiritual education, not the church. If we equip fathers to be strong leaders, they will teach their children what they need to learn. And, like I said, the church gathering time should not be just a sermon and an organized service, it should be a time of fellowship, edification, and discipling. A sermon is one part of it and by children being a part of it, as a family, they can gain from the mature teaching of the Word of God. Teaching Bible stories is what the father and mother is for. Fathers and mothers should never abdicate their role as the primary Bible teachers for their children to the church.

[Anon]

So you are saying if parents don't want to take their kids to church (for instance bus routes), that the kids are just out of luck in your ideal church?

[John81]

Our primary concern in reaching children is eventually reaching the family.

Parents will come out to see a children's program they learned in Jr Church, etc. Not all families are going to teach their children Bible verses and stories. Church is a great opportunity for these children.

We actually had a family saved in this way last year. Church family began bringing two little girls to church (the mom was a coworker) and eventually mom came out and all three got saved. Incidentally this would be a "fatherless" situation since the father is in jail, very sad situation.

Sometimes I think we get too busy nitpicking church methods and we forget the real purpose of our being here in the first place.

Like I said, I'm all for reaching the children. I have nothing against that. I only mentioned that in many cases I see little to no effort to reach the parents. So, while I believe we do absolutely need to reach the children, I also believe we need to put at least equal effort into reaching the parents as well.

[Jerry]

Teaching Bible stories is what the father and mother is for. Fathers and mothers should never abdicate their role as the primary Bible teachers for their children to the church.

You are dreaming if you think that most homes have a father and a mother. We have Sunday School busses that pick up children for Sunday School - they are the ONLY person in their family that goes to a sound church - should we just neglect their spiritual needs, and focus on the whole families instead? I grew up with only my Mom - and she was Catholic, so even when I went to Sunday School, I certainly had no one at home to teach me spiritual truths or help me sort out doctrine. Praise the Lord that the Sunday School I went to gave me some of the basic Bible stories (for example, those in Genesis and some of the Gospel stories).

One hour out of four is not tearing apart any families or causing problems spiritually - but it is edifying the children separately at a level where they can clearly grasp the Word of God.

[John81]

We attend services as a family. No matter what the pastor preaches on, the door is opened for discussion and growth in knowing the Word of God as our whole family is able to discuss, ask questions, get answers and mediate upon what was preached; together, as a family.

I believe families should attend the sermons as a family.

[John81]

You are dreaming if you think that most homes have a father and a mother. We have Sunday School busses that pick up children for Sunday School - they are the ONLY person in their family that goes to a sound church - should we just neglect their spiritual needs, and focus on the whole families instead? I grew up with only my Mom - and she was Catholic, so even when I went to Sunday School, I certainly had no one at home to teach me spiritual truths or help me sort out doctrine. Praise the Lord that the Sunday School I went to gave me some of the basic Bible stories (for example, those in Genesis and some of the Gospel stories).

One hour out of four is not tearing apart any families or causing problems spiritually - but it is edifying the children separately at a level where they can clearly grasp the Word of God.

Most homes in this area do indeed have a father and a mother. If statistics are correct, the majority of homes across America still have a father and a mother.

Sunday School can be a great thing, but I believe it should be held before or after the sermon.

[Jerry]

In our Sunday School hour, our Pastor still preaches a sermon - but he also preaches another one in the main service.

For the sake clarifying, on Sunday morning we have two services. The pre-teens have Junior church downstairs for both hours - one hour together as a large group and one hour into separate classes. The teens also have their own class for the first hour, and then join the rest of the congregation for the second service. All other services, including special meetings, we have the whole church together.

[John81]

We also have two morning services. The Sunday school classes and Bibly study classes are held between sermons.

[Guest Guest]

I think it is fine for younger children, but I don't like it for teens. Teens should be able to concentrate and understand on the same level as an adult. Putting teens all together tends to just make trouble...

[Jerry]

I guarantee our teen class is not some youth club - the teachers of that class are sound AND separated. It is a time of teaching, not a time of having fun with your friends, not a time of CCM and movies. I have seen a lot of growth and dedication to the Lord in the lives of our teens.