What is wrong with 'originals only?'

[MikeWatson1]

I understand we don't have the originals.  But I thought the copies of them are in such a massive amount that we can trust that we know what the originals said.

[Napsterdad]

Exodus 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

Oh well, there go the originals of God's commandments. We'll never get those back

Jeremiah 36:22-23 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him. 23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

There goes another original...up in smoke.

What are we to do without those originals? Now we'll never know what God wanted us to know from those writings. /sarc

Fortunately, I have a God that is capable of overcoming the loss of the originals.

[SGO]

Does God preserve His word or does man need to reconstruct it?

 

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 40:8

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:35

 

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalm 12:6-7

 

... that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Deuteronomy 8:3b

 

For verily I say unto you, Till haven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:18

 

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:23

 

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:25

 

[MikeWatson1]

1 hour ago, SGO said:

Does God preserve His word or does man need to reconstruct it?

 

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 40:8

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:35

 

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalm 12:6-7

 

... that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Deuteronomy 8:3b

 

For verily I say unto you, Till haven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:18

 

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:23

 

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:25

 

I suppose if I went with 'originals only'.. their meaning discoverable by the copious amounts of copies of them.. I would still have to find a version of these that matches the originals.. thereby going to the KJV

[SGO]

We do not have the originals.

We have copies of them.

God preserved them.

The present thinking of many modern scholars is that yes, God preserved His ideas, but not the words.

There are no verses that state this, but plenty that say, for example, "Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35).

The "copious amounts" of copies for the modern versions come from manuscripts and fragments that are other than the Textus Receptus (TR), which are about 10% of the TR's 5,000 manuscripts and fragments.

 

https://www.preservedword.com/content/antioch-or-alexandria/

 

Antioch or AlexandriaHow did God preserve His Bible?

Luke Mounsey

June 1, 2004

Manuscript Evidence

Print

 

I have previously established that God has preserved His Word, listing many Scriptures affirming this.   But exactly which Bible is the perfect Word of God?   If God preserved His Word, then it must be around here somewhere.   In order to find the perfect Bible, it is necessary to determine which manuscript text-type is the preserved line.   (A text-type is a group of manuscripts that generally agree with each other.)   There are two major text-types, the Byzantine/Antiochian/Majority/Universal text-type and the Alexandrian text-type.   The Byzantine text-type had it’s origin in Antioch, Syria, where the disciples of Christ were first called Christians (Acts 11:26).   The Alexandrian text originated in Alexandria, Egypt, which was probably the first place that the pure doctrine of Christ was perverted with false teaching.   95% of ALL known New Testament manuscripts fall into the Byzantine text-type.   (Even those who prefer the Alexandrian text are forced to admit this.)   Only a very few manuscripts fall into the Alexandrian text-type, and these manuscripts are known to have many serious problems.   Of the two most popular Alexandrian manuscripts, one (Vaticanus) is owned by the http://www.mag-net.com/%7Emaranath/OLDBEST.HTM for more information.

There are those who prefer the Antiochan/Byzantine text and those who prefer the Alexandrian.   Each group has different beliefs about how God preserved His word.   Here is a brief overview.

Antiochan

Alexandrian

God inspired the original manuscripts using holy men as His pens.   They wrote what He inspired them to.These manuscripts were faithfully copied and translated by other holy men.   But some evil men started producing their own modified version of the scriptures.   The Roman Catholic Church arose, making the perverted Scripture the official Bible of Catholicism.   All copies of Scripture were banned, pure or perverted, and only church leaders were allowed to possess a copy.   True Christians prevailed dispute horrible persecutions, refusing to join the idolatrous Catholic Church, and being used by God to preserve the pure Bible for all generations. The Protestant Reformation ended the Dark Ages as multitudes fled from Rome to the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.   The Bible was translated into many languages from the preserved text, making God’s pure Word available to the masses.   Revivals continued for centuries as people used God’s Word. In the 19th century, a push was made by the Vatican and some apostate Protestant scholars to declare that the perverted Roman Catholic manuscripts were superior to the God-honored preserved text.   New versions of the Bible were produced, which were not accepted at first, but slowly grew into acceptance.   Most Protestants did not realize that these new “Bibles” came from the corrupt line of manuscripts, not the preserved line.   But some did realize it, and when they attempted to warn others, were ostracized and declared divisive.

God inspired His word using men, who were not necessary holy (see below).   About 300 A.D, the Christian church revised God’s Word to make it better and “more orthodox.”   Thus the true Word of God was lost at this point.   The Catholic Church united Europe in Christian unity, but then the Protestants destroyed that unity by braking with Rome.   The Protestants ignorantly made their Bible translations from the revised manuscripts. In the mid 1800’s, a glorious discovery was made.   Two ancient manuscripts were found that predated the revised text the Protestants were using.   These differed significantly with the traditional text, and therefore were considered to be pre-revision.   After being lost for 1600 years, God’s word had finally been found!!   So they began cranking out Bibles translated from the new manuscripts.    As for the pure, preserved, inerrant Word of God, it of course was nowhere to be found, since it was perfect only in the “original manuscripts” which are long vanished.

The “Byzantines” believe God used holy men to inspire His word and holy men to preserve His word.   For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet 1:21).   On the other hand, Alexandrians believe that you don’t necessarily have to be holy to be used by God to preserve His word.   You don’t have to be holy to help with a Bible translation.  Maybe this is why there are so many liberals, heathens, and homosexuals on these Bible translation committees!   You’ve got to be kidding, you say.   They certainly wouldn’t allow anyone on their translation if they were living in sin!   Surely they would demand that they must be holy.   Well, their own new Bible versions have stripped being holy as a requirement for helping to inspire AND preserve the Word of God.   The word “holy” is clean gone from 2 Peter 1:21 in these new Bibles!   

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but ^^holy^^ ^^men of God^^ spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.   KJV

“For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” NIV

“for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.   NASB

“or because they wanted to prophesy. It was the Holy Spirit who moved the prophets to speak from God.”   NLT

Now we have to give the New King James some credit, they do leave the word holy in the text,but casting doubt on it with a footnote:

“for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[a] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”   NKJV
(footnote [a] reads “NU-Text reads but men spoke from God. “).

So the Alexandrians believe that you don’t have to be holy in order to work on a Bible translation!   Is it then no wonder that many of the modern translators are either apostate liberals or flat out heathens!!!   Is it no surprise that the fruit of their “Bibles” is not great revival but great apathy and apostasy!!!   But this will be covered in more detail in a future article.   

So we see that the Byzantine/ Majority Text proponents believe that God inspired His word using holy men, and preserved it using holy men to make it available for all generations.   The Alexandrian proponents, however, believe that God inspired His word, then lost it!!   After not having the word of God for centuries, they finally found it again in the “oldest and best” Alexandrian manuscripts.   What kind of preservation is this?   This is NOT preservation!   If you believe that the oldest manuscripts are the best, then you do not believe that God has preserved His word.   IF you believe that the scriptures were inerrant only in the “original manuscripts” then you do not believe that God has preserved His Word.   If you don’t believe that God preserved His word, you disbelieve the Bible and are calling God a liar!!   Therefore, you must make a choice.   You must chose between the Antiochan or the Alexandrian text.   For the Bible-believer, this choice should be an obvious one.

(Views: 15429)

Updated: February 24, 2015 — 2:07 AM

 

 

 

Edited July 2 by SGO

[Joe Chandler]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:37 AM, Napsterdad said:

Exodus 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

Oh well, there go the originals of God's commandments. We'll never get those back

Jeremiah 36:22-23 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him. 23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

There goes another original...up in smoke.

What are we to do without those originals? Now we'll never know what God wanted us to know from those writings. /sarc

Fortunately, I have a God that is capable of overcoming the loss of the originals.

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

How stupid are you?

[Napsterdad]

15 hours ago, Joe Chandler said:

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

How stupid are you?

Wow! What a Christ like disparaging and demeaning remark. Is this how you disciple everyone you disagree with?

While it is true that the tables were rewritten in Exodus 34, the "ORIGINAL" was destroyed in Exodus 32. Just as the "ORIGINAL" of Jeremiah's writings were destroyed in Jeremiah 26:22-23, just to be rewritten later in that chapter.

Did you notice my statement "What are we to do without those originals? Now we'll never know what God wanted us to know from those writings. /sarc"?

Did you notice the "/sarc" at the end? That means I was being sarcastic.

    sar·cas·tic  /särˈkastik/
    adjective
    marked by or given to using irony in order to mock or convey contempt.

I also then stated that "Fortunately, I have a God that is capable of overcoming the loss of the originals". And He did, in Exodus 34 and later in Jeremiah 26.

Ahhh..., but what do I know? I'm just a "stupid" rube not nearly as smart or educated as Joe Chandler. I bow to you sir in humble adoration of your greatness. /sarc.