The Westernization of Modern American Christianity

[Josie]

Hi, Everyone!

This is an interesting topic to me, and one very near and dear to my heart! I’ve lived and have traveled all around the country and the world. Having lived in the Middle East for a few years and spending time at a former family home in Lebanon (okay, so it was super cool to essentially wake up each morning “in the Bible!” ), and knowing that Christianity began was born in the Middle Eastern culture and tradition, I’m curious to hear your thoughts about how Western Christianity has developed over the millennia and, in particular, the American church experience! Let’s leave this open-ended, because there is so much here to discuss!

God bless,

 

Josie

[Joe Chandler]

3 hours ago, Josie said:

Hi, Everyone!

This is an interesting topic to me, and one very near and dear to my heart! I’ve lived and have traveled all around the country and the world. Having lived in the Middle East for a few years and spending time at a former family home in Lebanon (okay, so it was super cool to essentially wake up each morning “in the Bible!” ), and knowing that Christianity began was born in the Middle Eastern culture and tradition, I’m curious to hear your thoughts about how Western Christianity has developed over the millennia and, in particular, the American church experience! Let’s leave this open-ended, because there is so much here to discuss!

God bless,

 

Josie

The American church is a very broad term. I have read several good books on Baptist history in America and England.  Our experience is very different from American Catholics or Anglicans. The Mormons began in America as well as the Church of Christ.

I suspect that you are only interested in Bible believing churches and how we are different from Bible believers in other countries. Is that right?

[Josie]

That is a good point. Thank you! While I am fascinated by other traditions and more of the “fringe” groups of American Christianity and could talk, discuss, and debate on them all day long, let’s narrow the parameter to what you suggested.

[Joe Chandler]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:08 AM, Josie said:

That is a good point. Thank you! While I am fascinated by other traditions and more of the “fringe” groups of American Christianity and could talk, discuss, and debate on them all day long, let’s narrow the parameter to what you suggested.

I have noticed that we use Anglo American traditions with almost the same emphasis as Bible principles. For instance we expect everybody to use our dress codes or adhere to punctuality standards that do not work in some parts of the world. In remote or third world countries, people travel miles and miles on foot to get to church. Those people expect a much longer service than Americans that want to be out by noon so they can go eat. As one man put it, "We start at 11:00 AM sharp and end at 12:00 dull."  You have me at a disadvantage as I have not been to a church service anywhere but America. My information has been gleaned from missionaries describing their experiences. What kinds of things have you noticed? 

[lancem]

This is neat. I joined just to respond to this question. I have also been interested in how American culture has influenced Christianity for better or for worse. I have been to church services in Haiti and I can attest that punctuality doesn't have the same value as it does in the states. That's not a criticism just and observation. Joe, I like your comment about the service ending at 12:00 dull . And yes I think you have a point that in America we may consider lack of punctuality a form of disrespect and perhaps sinful in its own right whereas in other cultures it would not be given any notice.

I always thought that the idea of manifest destiny from the early 1800's kind of had the same tone as Genesis 1:28 "Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" I have never heard any evidence that the two were connected. Just an idea I had. 

The issue of modesty is always a thorny one in my view. What other cultures deem appropriate or inappropriate dress seems to vary pretty widely. When I teach my children how to dress appropriately and modestly I think I'm really just passing on the cultural values of the early Anglican's right? In some cultures bare shoulders are still considered modest, in others its not. I don't have a problem with people being different but the issue is: should I be insisting that "this is the way God wants us to dress" when its really more of an American cultural practice not really scriptural per se.

[Rebecca]

I've had this conversation many times with many different people. I'm not an expert by any means, but from my observation and in conversations, it's become clear that quite a bit of American Christianity traditions started in the early 1900s: Sunday school, altar calls, passing the plate, tent revivals, order of services, preaching styles, 'three to thrive' etc.  Once someone has visited churches outside the US, it really makes you stop and think about the difference between doing something due to tradition or because it's biblical. That doesn't mean the tradition is bad/wrong, just that it may not be necessary when starting a church in a different country.  We are called to spread the gospel, not our culture or traditions.

[TheGloryLand]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:18 PM, Joe Chandler said:

The American church is a very broad term. I have read several good books on Baptist history in America and England.  Our experience is very different from American Catholics or Anglicans. The Mormons began in America as well as the Church of Christ.

I suspect that you are only interested in Bible believing churches and how we are different from Bible believers in other countries. Is that right?

You made her change the title post to your post? 

[SureWord]

7 hours ago, Rebecca said:

We are called to spread the gospel, not our culture or traditions.

This is true but I've heard many missionaries say after the natives converted one of the first things they want to do is put on Western clothing and without any badging from the missionaries to do so.

Maybe many cultures and traditions are an organic outgrowth of believing the gospel.

[Joe Chandler]

11 hours ago, Rebecca said:

I've had this conversation many times with many different people. I'm not an expert by any means, but from my observation and in conversations, it's become clear that quite a bit of American Christianity traditions started in the early 1900s: Sunday school, altar calls, passing the plate, tent revivals, order of services, preaching styles, 'three to thrive' etc.  Once someone has visited churches outside the US, it really makes you stop and think about the difference between doing something due to tradition or because it's biblical. That doesn't mean the tradition is bad/wrong, just that it may not be necessary when starting a church in a different country.  We are called to spread the gospel, not our culture or traditions.

Yes, you are right. I forgot about Sunday School being unique.

7 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

You made her change the title post to your post? 

Yes, I coerced her somehow. I have great power over others! Jealous? 

[TheGloryLand]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:59 PM, Josie said:

Hi, Everyone!

This is an interesting topic to me, and one very near and dear to my heart! I’ve lived and have traveled all around the country and the world. Having lived in the Middle East for a few years and spending time at a former family home in Lebanon (okay, so it was super cool to essentially wake up each morning “in the Bible!” ), and knowing that Christianity began was born in the Middle Eastern culture and tradition, I’m curious to hear your thoughts about how Western Christianity has developed over the millennia and, in particular, the American church experience! Let’s leave this open-ended, because there is so much here to discuss!

God bless,

 

Josie

Back to your post, I believe the first Christians that came to America were in the hope of freedom of living a better life, and practice the true Christian religion. To live by the gospel of Jesus Christ. They did the best to their ability. Wars and possessions, was always a problem. Today modern Christians, fall short to those of the past. As you can see in the debates of the modern sins,  creeping into the local church. The love of money, and false teachings. Blind members follow the crowd and seek fame. Watch out with the know-it-all preachers. The truth was is the East first, then cross over to the West. Those that are against Israel, under the Christian flag, are fake.

[Josie]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, Joe Chandler said:

For instance we expect everybody to use our dress codes or adhere to punctuality standards that do not work in some parts of the world. In remote or third world countries, people travel miles and miles on foot to get to church. Those people expect a much longer service than Americans that want to be out by noon so they can go eat. As one man put it, "We start at 11:00 AM sharp and end at 12:00 dull."  You have me at a disadvantage as I have not been to a church service anywhere but America. My information has been gleaned from missionaries describing their experiences. What kinds of things have you noticed? 

 

Oh, you speak truth, Joe! lol. I've been to many places around the globe where being "on time" is a nice suggestion or is merely a starting point. That being said, my heart goes out to the people in third world countries who are hungry for the Lord and for His word. I've seen people travel great distances just to come to church or an outreach program. When I lived in Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates, there were about 20 church services at one church. It was standing room only. All pews were crammed. The spaces along the walls were full. Eventually, they opened up the side doors and sat chairs out for more of the faithful. During the sermon, the pastor spoke from his heart and said that he was so happy to have everyone there. He welcomed everyone to come and to come even if they couldn't add to the offering plates, that the most important thing was that they were there. Apparently, he had become aware that this was a problem for many of the "lower class workers" who took the church supplied busses; that more would have come, but they were ashamed. I loved how he reiterated the most important part of worship: that they simply be there!

 

While the UAE is definitely not a Third World Country-- in many ways, it is more posh than the U.S.-- about 85% of us were expatriates. Workers there came from all over. It was a beautiful melting pot of people. 

 

Another experience I had was in during my third mission trip to Mexico. I was one of the group leaders with our teens from church. When we were all gathered at the church for a prayer service in some middle-of-nowhere hut village that I couldn't even find on a map now if I tried, the local people were asking for prayers and telling us the most amazing stories of what God was doing in their lives. Yet they looked at us and said something to the effect of, "This must sound so small to you. After all, you are missionaries." We were truly humbled. 

 

I think that, sometimes, we have all become so comfortable with our comfortable lives and American ways of doing things. We go to church, we do what is expected of us, we go through the motions. But where are our hearts? Why do we do what we do? Is there truly a hunger for the things of God? Is He present in our lives? Is our relationship with Him deep, alive, and active? Is he working through us to touch others' lives and hearts for His name's sake?

 

So many people in this world could put us to shame, I think. Some of the poorest countries in this world have the deepest thirst for Him. They have nothing, save for God. So He becomes their everything. And it is truly beautiful to see what God is doing with His people, so on fire for Him. 

[Josie]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:57 PM, lancem said:

This is neat. I joined just to respond to this question. I have also been interested in how American culture has influenced Christianity for better or for worse. I have been to church services in Haiti and I can attest that punctuality doesn't have the same value as it does in the states. That's not a criticism just and observation. Joe, I like your comment about the service ending at 12:00 dull . And yes I think you have a point that in America we may consider lack of punctuality a form of disrespect and perhaps sinful in its own right whereas in other cultures it would not be given any notice.

I always thought that the idea of manifest destiny from the early 1800's kind of had the same tone as Genesis 1:28 "Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" I have never heard any evidence that the two were connected. Just an idea I had. 

The issue of modesty is always a thorny one in my view. What other cultures deem appropriate or inappropriate dress seems to vary pretty widely. When I teach my children how to dress appropriately and modestly I think I'm really just passing on the cultural values of the early Anglican's right? In some cultures bare shoulders are still considered modest, in others its not. I don't have a problem with people being different but the issue is: should I be insisting that "this is the way God wants us to dress" when its really more of an American cultural practice not really scriptural per se.

Hi, Lance! Thank you for joining just to respond to this thread! What an honor! 

I think the parallel you made between Genesis 1:28 and the American idea of Manifest Destiny is an interesting idea to consider. I have no idea if there is a connection there or not. Perhaps it would take some digging into the dusty journals of our great-great-great-great grandparents to find an answer as to whether that was in the minds of our forefathers. However, perhaps the verse itself is an innate part of either our human experience or our spiritual one. Like, it's built into us somehow. 

As to your thought on modesty, that is tricky. I've lived in a culture where women dress from head-to-toe in garments that sometimes covered every single inch of them. Some women even wore full mesh veils over that. I jokingly called it the "beekeeper look." I truly don't know how they kept from walking into people or walls! (I have a hard enough time doing that and, while I dress modestly and prefer skirts, dresses, and "split skirts" to pants in public, let's just say I'd probably look and walk around like a blind bat in all that get-up! ) But the men there wore robes, which are essentially "dresses." I've been in other parts of the world where traditional American ideals of "modesty" didn't even enter into their minds.

I'm not exactly sure where the line is drawn. Deuteronomy 22:5 speaks of men and women wearing clothing appropriate to their respective gender. Yet what does that mean? My mother buys pants from the women's section of department stores. In many cultures, men wear robes. 1 Timothy 2:9-10 admonishes women to be modest, not by fixated upon the outward appearance, but through good works. Likewise, 1 Peter 3:2-5 reveals that what is most precious to God in women is a meek and quiet spirit. Proverbs 11:22 states, "As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion." Last, the Proverbs 31 woman is clothed with "strength and dignity." I think it's fair to say that our hearts and our attitudes, both men and women, are far more important to our Heavenly Father than what clothing or adornments we choose to display ourselves in. Yet those same things can, and perhaps ought to be, chosen and worn as a reflection of our love for Him. When He is our first love and the desire of our hearts, our whole lives change. Clothing included. Personal convictions might differ from person to person, and they might even change depending upon the season of our lives. I think it's a beautiful thing to ask, "Does this outfit honor Him? Does it reflect my love for Him?"

Please don't be a stranger! Do you have any other thoughts or questions you'd like to ponder about the westernization of modern American Christianity?

~ Josie~

 

[Josie]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:07 PM, Joe Chandler said:

Yes, you are right. I forgot about Sunday School being unique.

Yes, I coerced her somehow. I have great power over others! Jealous? 

LOL!  Did the title of the thread change?!
 

While I’m definitely more submissive in personality just in general, I’m also a “sassy sweetheart.” Only legitimate authority, and my future husband someday, do or will hold “great power” over me!

Edited July 10, 2023 by Josie

[Joe Chandler]

2 hours ago, Josie said:

LOL!  Did the title of the thread change?!
 

While I’m definitely more submissive in personality just in general, I’m also a “sassy sweetheart.” Only legitimate authority, and my future husband someday, do or will hold “great power” over me!

No, the title did not change. I react with humor sometimes when I cannot think of how to answer certain posts. 

In Scotland, men wear kilts. I have some Scottish ancestors and have threatened to wear a kilt to church. (I won't, but I love the reaction I get from folks.) I think that the passage in Deuteronomy 22:5 is specifically addressing cross dressing. Unheard of in America until recently. Now we have TV shows about it.

[Joe Chandler]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:22 AM, SureWord said:

This is true but I've heard many missionaries say after the natives converted one of the first things they want to do is put on Western clothing and without any badging from the missionaries to do so.

Maybe many cultures and traditions are an organic outgrowth of believing the gospel.

Mark 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Even this guy put his clothes on. He was a nude dude in a rude mood until Jesus came.