Do We Also Have Bible-Based Doctrines That Are Wrong? Is There a Case for Women as Pastors?

[Napsterdad]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

A lot can be deduced from these few words Paul said: "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom. 16:7).

With regard to ministry, Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were "fellowprisoners" of his. One can assume that their imprisonment might also have been for their faith.

Paul also said that they "are of note among the apostles." Accordingly, Junia would have done the work of an apostle. Here are definitions of what an apostle does:

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Apostle: (Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning age[sic n]t.

Strongs: From apostello; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ.

Not much more is said of them, except that they were "kinsmen" of Paul and "also were in Christ before him."

"A lot can be deduced" from just about every verse or small section of scripture. The JWs and Mormons are prime examples of those that have done "a lot of deduction".

None of your deduction, however, makes either Andronicus or Junia an actual officially designated Apostle as were Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, James, etc.

To your second point, many have been imprisoned for their faith to this day. Are they all then to be officially designated Apostles as were Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, James, etc.?

To your third point we all do work that the Apostles had done. If we are active Christians, we likely dabble in just about every discipline in the church to some extent. That does not qualify us to wear every title.

Jesus Himself gave us all the Great Commission: Matthew 28:18-20 All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

By your definitions above, and through this commission by Jesus Himself, I guess all Christians could be officially designated as Apostles as were Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, James, etc.

It really depends on how far you are willing to dilute God's word to suit your own agenda. But if we are all Apostles, what need have we for prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph 4:11); or bishops and deacons (1 Tim. 3), or elders (Titus 1:5)?

I prefer not to be in the practice of dilution. The Apostles are clearly named in the Bible. I need not add to their number to bolster any private interpretation.

 

 

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Good answer, Tony. Now, consider that a pcall erson sent by God as an apostle has been given the authority to teach.

Teaching is far different from the call to pastor/shepherd. All Christians have the "authority", or should I say, the command to teach others. You're still reaching, Doc. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

11 hours ago, DaveW said:

Lets quote the verse itself and see what it says about Junia......

Rom 16:7
(7)  Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I don't know, but it seems to me that it says KINSMEN.........

Kinsmen means that they were related to Paul as family or fellow countrymen. Strong’s: Akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman. From sun and genos; a relative; by extension, a fellow countryman.

Junia is a female name just as Dave is male. The male version of Junia is Junias, which some versions use. Both sides of the argument agree on this.

In their article, Junia, a Female Apostle: An Examination of the Historical Record, the egalitarian site, CBE International, say, “Greek . . . Iounian . . . [refers] either to woman named Junia or to a man named Junias.”

In its article, A Female Apostle?, the complementarian site, CBMW, says, “In order to evaluate the claim that Rom 16:7 refers to a female apostle named Junia, it is necessary to examine the name itself to determine if it is the feminine name Junia or the masculine name Junias.”

Notes:

The complementarian view holds that women should not hold church leadership roles that involve teaching or authority over men (Wiki).

Christian egalitarians believe that the Bible mandates gender equality and equal responsibilities for the family unit and the ability for women to exercise spiritual authority as clergy (Wiki).

12 hours ago, DaveW said:

You conveniently neglect to quote other verses:

Act 18:2
(2)  And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
Act 18:26
(26)  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
1Co 16:19
(19)  The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
 

By placing Aquila's name ahead of his wife's in these passages, Paul (OK Luke in two of these) appears to esteem him ahead of Priscilla as a co-worker.

I quoted all three verses you said I “conveniently neglect[ed],” namely, Acts 18:2, Acts 18:26, and 1 Cor. 16:19. I said, “By placing Priscilla's name ahead of her husband's in his later epistles, Paul appears to esteem her ahead of Aquila as a co-worker.” The texts are Rom. 16:3 and 2 Tim. 4:19. As for Luke, he may have simply kept to the custom of placing the male's name ahead of the female's.

12 hours ago, DaveW said:

Finally, 

I don't know, how about:

1Ti 3:2
(2)  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Yes, a husband is a male. “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach."

However, “husband of one wife” is a strict marker, that would prohibit single men and widowers too, for they are not “the husband of one wife” either. This would exclude people like Paul.

The passage goes on, "Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)”

Does “having his children in subjection” imply elders must have children?

Though Paul does not mention single men, widowers, childless married men, or women, he is in no way excluding them. 1 Timothy 3:1 reads, “This is a true saying, If a man (Gk. tis – anyone) desire the office of a bishop, he (not in Gk.) desireth a good work.”  Paul uses a gender-neutral term again in 1 Timothy 3:5.  “For if a man (Gk. tis –anyone) know not how to rule his (not in Gk.) own house, how shall he (not in Gk.) take care of the church of God?” 1 Timothy 3:1-7 gives the picture of a typical elder of his day. The moral issues are the markers, not gender, marital status, or family size.

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Kinsmen means that they were related to Paul as family or fellow countrymen. Strong’s: Akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman. From sun and genos; a relative; by extension, a fellow countryman.

Junia is a female name just as Dave is male. The male version of Junia is Junias, which some versions use. Both sides of the argument agree on this.

In their article, Junia, a Female Apostle: An Examination of the Historical Record, the egalitarian site, CBE International, say, “Greek . . . Iounian . . . [refers] either to woman named Junia or to a man named Junias.”

In its article, A Female Apostle?, the complementarian site, CBMW, says, “In order to evaluate the claim that Rom 16:7 refers to a female apostle named Junia, it is necessary to examine the name itself to determine if it is the feminine name Junia or the masculine name Junias.”

Notes:

The complementarian view holds that women should not hold church leadership roles that involve teaching or authority over men (Wiki).

Christian egalitarians believe that the Bible mandates gender equality and equal responsibilities for the family unit and the ability for women to exercise spiritual authority as clergy (Wiki).

I quoted all three verses you said I “conveniently neglect[ed],” namely, Acts 18:2, Acts 18:26, and 1 Cor. 16:19. I said, “By placing Priscilla's name ahead of her husband's in his later epistles, Paul appears to esteem her ahead of Aquila as a co-worker.” The texts are Rom. 16:3 and 2 Tim. 4:19. As for Luke, he may have simply kept to the custom of placing the male's name ahead of the female's.

Yes, a husband is a male. “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach."

However, “husband of one wife” is a strict marker, that would prohibit single men and widowers too, for they are not “the husband of one wife” either. This would exclude people like Paul.

The passage goes on, "Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)”

Does “having his children in subjection” imply elders must have children?

Though Paul does not mention single men, widowers, childless married men, or women, he is in no way excluding them. 1 Timothy 3:1 reads, “This is a true saying, If a man (Gk. tis – anyone) desire the office of a bishop, he (not in Gk.) desireth a good work.”  Paul uses a gender-neutral term again in 1 Timothy 3:5.  “For if a man (Gk. tis –anyone) know not how to rule his (not in Gk.) own house, how shall he (not in Gk.) take care of the church of God?” 1 Timothy 3:1-7 gives the picture of a typical elder of his day. The moral issues are the markers, not gender, marital status, or family size.

Now you are picking on my wine.  I heard it through the grapevine. Rick Warren, have taught you very well,  Dr.

Edited June 7, 2023 by TheGloryLand

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

4 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

"who are of note among the apostles" could just as easily mean 'who are esteemed by the apostles'. In other words, when the apostles consider these two individuals, they are held in high regard. There is no need to force the title of Apostle on either of these two, whether they be male or female.

The term "esteemed by" in your example is not equivalent to "of note among." Terms like "esteemed by" and "well known to" have a different meaning to "of note among". The term "among" denotes inclusiveness. The complementarian site, CBMW, says in their article, A Female Apostle?, "Paul praises them for standing out en tois apostolois[(among the apostles)], where the latter would be seen as their peer group or the backdrop from which the comparison is made."

Importantly, the KJV chose to use "of note among."

[BrotherTony]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

The term "esteemed by" in your example is not equivalent to "of note among." Terms like "esteemed by" and "well known to" have a different meaning to "of note among". The term "among" denotes inclusiveness. The complementarian site, CBMW, says in their article, A Female Apostle?, "Paul praises them for standing out en tois apostolois[(among the apostles)], where the latter would be seen as their peer group or the backdrop from which the comparison is made."

Importantly, the KJV chose to use "of note among."

And? Why shouldn't a female be as a "sent person." Doc, you just don't seem to be making any headway here. Sent and pastoring are two separate critters. 

[Napsterdad]

34 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

The term "esteemed by" in your example is not equivalent to "of note among." Terms like "esteemed by" and "well known to" have a different meaning to "of note among". The term "among" denotes inclusiveness. The complementarian site, CBMW, says in their article, A Female Apostle?, "Paul praises them for standing out en tois apostolois[(among the apostles)], where the latter would be seen as their peer group or the backdrop from which the comparison is made."

Importantly, the KJV chose to use "of note among."

When I sit in on program meetings, we often cite people, events and places that are not among us as program managers. They are entities that stand out in our attention. They are of note. It is not out of place for someone in these meetings to say something similar to: 'Of note, so and so performed his/her job flawlessly, enabling our product to exceed expectations'. The person of note is not a program manager but is of note among us. Interestingly enough, they are not only "of note among us", they are also usually "esteemed by" and "well known to".

It is interesting that you keep pulling quotes from sources (i.e. CBMW) that are there for the sole purpose of promoting the views you support. No bias there, huh?

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

7 hours ago, Joe Chandler said:

Well said, old boy. Let the clear passages take priority over the obscure passages. Forget all the "Yea hath God said?" nonsense.  

Yes, clear passages are used to interpret the obscure. Here are some of the clear passages:

• Gen. 1:26–28 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
• Joel 2:2-29 - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
• Acts 2:17-18 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
• Gal. 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
• 1 Cor. 14:36 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

1 Timothy 2:11-15 is obscure.

Here it is from verse 8. “I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

Paul addressed "men" and "women" in 1 Timothy 2:8-10. So why did he switch to referring to "the woman," “a woman,” and "the man" in verses 11-12? That is obscure and needs an answer before using it to negate all the clear verses.

The word translated as "woman" (gynē) is also used for "wife." Is he only talking about "a woman" in a married relationship to "the man" (andros), a term also used for "husband"?

What does "all" mean in, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection"?

Does "be in silence" mean "a woman" cannot speak at all? How do they prophesy? (See Acts 2:18). Can they participate in Paul’s instruction, “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord”?

Why does Paul say, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” when they were both “in the transgression." That too is obscure and needs an answer before applying any meaning to it.

What does he mean by, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety"?

Yet, the way this passage gets interpreted by some negates Paul's exasperation in 1 Corinthians 14:36, God's original intention in Genesis 1:26-28, Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:2-29) that was confirmed by Peter (Acts 2:17-18), and Paul's clear statement about those IN Christ (Gal. 3:28).

We shouldn't use the obscure as a basis of our doctrine.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

7 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Nicely said, I like the part for she is the weak vessel, or weak apostle. Don’t forget to cover your head/hair during class.

 

Peter says, "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered" ( 1 Peter 3:7). It's an instruction to husbands about how they ought to treat their wives. The term "vessel" does not speak of spiritual or intellectual ability but of a wife's body.

Concerning head coverings, Paul says, "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God" (1 Cor. 11:16).

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

6 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Thanks, I also understand that in the Old Testament, they were much stricter than  we are today. The role of her teachings and reminding silence, today this all change of course. For the liberals are taking over and we true believers, are in the minority. I believe you are a liberal, open to changes that will please the more. You are a good liberal, trying to do what is right. This is your personal choice, like Salvation. Have a nice day. TGL

Like most here, Scripture is my foundation. In my opinion, liberals are way off course and conservatives have a history of changing their minds and becoming more biblically correct.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

5 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

None of your deduction, however, makes either Andronicus or Junia an actual officially designated Apostle as were Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, James, etc.

God's word does the designation of Andronicus or Junia, saying, "who are of note among the apostles" (Rom. 16:7 KJV). In the same way, it designates others as apostles outside of the twelve and Paul, namely, Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Apollos (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6), and possibly Timothy using the same verses.

5 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

To your second point, many have been imprisoned for their faith to this day. Are they all then to be officially designated Apostles as were Peter, Paul, Matthew, John, James, etc.?

Agreed, imprisonment does not make them apostles. TGL asked what Junia had done in the faith. I mentioned her imprisonment in reply to that.

5 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

To your third point we all do work that the Apostles had done. If we are active Christians, we likely dabble in just about every discipline in the church to some extent. That does not qualify us to wear every title.

Many get involved in noble Christian work, and some in multiple activities, still, Ephesians 4:11-12 distinguishes the work of certain roles, saying, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." I wholeheartedly agree that our activities do not qualify us to wear every title.

[TheGloryLand]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Like most here, Scripture is my foundation. In my opinion, liberals are way off course and conservatives have a history of changing their minds and becoming more biblically correct.

Amazing answer, like Rick Warren you’re in the middle, I think. When talking about being liberal or conservative. Dr. Morley,  you’re pretty good. Keep quoting the Bible, even if it might be hard for you, to be using the King James bible all the time. Hopefully, it becomes your favorite Bible.

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Yes, clear passages are used to interpret the obscure. Here are some of the clear passages:

• Gen. 1:26–28 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
• Joel 2:2-29 - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
• Acts 2:17-18 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
• Gal. 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
• 1 Cor. 14:36 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

1 Timothy 2:11-15 is obscure.

Here it is from verse 8. “I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

Paul addressed "men" and "women" in 1 Timothy 2:8-10. So why did he switch to referring to "the woman," “a woman,” and "the man" in verses 11-12? That is obscure and needs an answer before using it to negate all the clear verses.

The word translated as "woman" (gynē) is also used for "wife." Is he only talking about "a woman" in a married relationship to "the man" (andros), a term also used for "husband"?

What does "all" mean in, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection"?

Does "be in silence" mean "a woman" cannot speak at all? How do they prophesy? (See Acts 2:18). Can they participate in Paul’s instruction, “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord”?

Why does Paul say, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” when they were both “in the transgression." That too is obscure and needs an answer before applying any meaning to it.

What does he mean by, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety"?

Yet, the way this passage gets interpreted by some negates Paul's exasperation in 1 Corinthians 14:36, God's original intention in Genesis 1:26-28, Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:2-29) that was confirmed by Peter (Acts 2:17-18), and Paul's clear statement about those IN Christ (Gal. 3:28).

We shouldn't use the obscure as a basis of our doctrine.

Why do you insist on acting obtuse, then argumentative, then you the bloviating "professor?" You say "we shouldn't use the obscure as a basis of our doctrine," yet you seem to have no problem adding your own beliefs and positions into the texts to back your positions. Astounding! I'm posting from my phone or I would go further into this post. I will once I have access to my laptop. 

[Napsterdad]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

God's word does the designation of Andronicus or Junia, saying, "who are of note among the apostles" (Rom. 16:7 KJV).

You must not have read my rebuttal to your rendering of "who are of not among the apostles". I do not see how this succinctly identifies these two as apostles. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

4 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Teaching is far different from the call to pastor/shepherd. All Christians have the "authority", or should I say, the command to teach others. You're still reaching, Doc. 

Teaching is the primary role of a bishop/elder. Paul says that elders should be "apt to teach" (1 Tim. 3:2). He also speaks of elders/bishops "Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayer" (Titus 1:9). In Ephesians 4:11-12, Paul distinguishes apostles from prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. It is understood by many that "pastors and teachers" is one role.

Paul personally tells Timothy, a church leader, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15).

Peter says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder . . . : Feed the flock of God which is among you . . . And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Peter 5:1-2,4). Peter was similarly entrusted by Jesus to "Feed my lambs . . . Feed my sheep . . . feed my sheep" (John 21:15-17). He calls himself also an elder. He understood teaching was the primary way a pastor/shepherd is supposed to operate and passed that on.

Soberingly, James 3:1 warns, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."