Saddleback Church kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention

[BrotherTony]

54 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Billy Graham was never on the rails.  Since the 1940s he promoted heresy after heresy.  

Since our last I've seen another clip with Warren and his theology is just plain wrong.  He was making heretical statements but it's no wonder, since he doesn't really have firm grasp of God's Word since he's loaded his brain with all those phony bibles.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Some don't agree with you.

[TheGloryLand]

I have notices, churches, that become more liberal, they becomes Mega in size. they don’t need the southern Baptist support. Mega churches, needs mega money, to keep them running. I personally believe, this is not God‘s plans, of spiritual growth.

[SureWord]

6 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Billy Graham was never on the rails.  Since the 1940s he promoted heresy after heresy.  

Since our last I've seen another clip with Warren and his theology is just plain wrong.  He was making heretical statements but it's no wonder, since he doesn't really have firm grasp of God's Word since he's loaded his brain with all those phony bibles.

One of the biggest issues with Graham's revivals was he had people from all different kinds of denominations and sects working them. I've read about Roman Catholics telling those who walked the "sawdust trail" to head back to the Catholic church after getting saved. This was because Graham adopted Neo-Evangelicalism in the late 1940s.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Saddleback and others have taken a biblical stand. Having considered all the texts, they have concluded that none forbid a female as a pastor in all its functions, including teaching. Patriarchy that began in Genesis 3 has pervaded the church, twisting the interpretation of texts, and greatly diminishing its potential.

 

[TheGloryLand]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Saddleback and others have taken a biblical stand. Having considered all the texts, they have concluded that none forbid a female as a pastor in all its functions, including teaching. Patriarchy that began in Genesis 3 has pervaded the church, twisting the interpretation of texts, and greatly diminishing its potential.

 

Women that can preach, and acceptance of the LGBTQ community lifestyles, will bring in more cash. Money talks…

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

2 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Women that can preach, and acceptance of the LGBTQ community lifestyles, will bring in more cash. Money talks…

It is unhelpful to the discussion to mention "acceptance of LGBTQ community lifestyles" when discussing the issue of women as pastors as it distracts from the topic and can fuel an unfounded and unfair bias. Also, the allegation that the doctrinal position Saddleback took is for money is ungrounded. Regardless of how we feel about an issue, we must be careful not to spread baseless claims (Ex. 33:1 KJV).

Edited April 22, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

It is unhelpful to the discussion to mention "acceptance of LGBTQ community lifestyles" when discussing the issue of women as pastors as it distracts from the topic and can fuel an unfounded and unfair bias. Also, the allegation that the doctrinal position Saddleback took is for money is ungrounded. Regardless of how we feel about an issue, we must be careful not to spread baseless claims (Ex. 33:1 KJV).

You are correct, we don’t want to change the subject here, or get any liberals upset here. We believe a man is born a man, and a woman, is born a woman. No either side, here. The man is head of the church, after Christ. The man, is head of the home. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

12 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

You are correct, we don’t want to change the subject here, or get any liberals upset here. We believe a man is born a man, and a woman, is born a woman. No either side, here. The man is head of the church, after Christ. The man, is head of the home. 

With regard to the headship passages, here is an extract from a book my wife and I just published:

Church Leadership

In a nutshell, complementarian wives cannot take on leadership roles in society where they are ‘over’ their husbands.‌ And so, fueled by a common misconception that church leadership roles are hierarchical, despite Jesus’ command to the contrary (Matt 20:25-27), complementarians also restrict women in church roles to prevent them from violating their concept of male headship in the home.‌ Regarding church leadership, complementarians are especially quick to implement this practice, believing that Paul was addressing the possible violation of this spousal headship structure in passages like 1 Tim.‌ 2:11-15 and 1 Cor.‌ 14:34-35.

Head – Authority or Source?

What is clear is that this belief hinges on the principle of hierarchical headship in the home.‌ However, even though Ephesians 5:23 certainly speaks of the husband as the head of the wife, the biblical era meaning of head (Gk.‌ kephale) is source¹ and not rank, status, or position of headship.‌ Note that the text says, “the husband is the head of [not over] the wife, even as Christ is the head of [not over] the church,” for Christ is our source of life.‌

Someone might ask, what of 1 Corinthians 11:3, which reads, “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God”? Here, the term “head” (Gk.‌ kephale) is also understood as “source” or “origin” without the idea of rank and conveying the concept of chronology rather than hierarchy.‌

To further substantiate this, the sequence in 1 Corinthians 11:3 of Man – Christ, Wife – Husband, and Christ – God does not illustrate a hierarchy.‌ A hierarchical meaning would get conveyed as Wife – Husband, Man – Christ, Christ – God.‌

Thirdly, the hierarchical interpretation of this passage begs the question, is the ascended Christ, the Son of God, under God? As the Word, equal to God, He relinquished His equality for our salvation.‌ But His equality with God has been restored.‌ He has received all authority in heaven and earth.‌

Order Given by Chronology of Source

“. ‌.‌ . the head of every man is Christ” means Adam got made by Christ.‌ “.‌ .‌ .‌ the head of the woman is man” means Eve came from Adam. It also describes that period when a husband provided physical and spiritual resources, which, unlike his wife, he could readily access.‌ “. . . the head of Christ is God” points to Christ coming from God, begotten of God, when He as God became flesh to become the man, Jesus Christ.‌

In their 2000 book, Why Not Women, Cunningham, Hamilton, and Rogers cite Cyril of Alexandria of the 5th century, who said,

Thus we say that the kephale of every man is Christ, because he was made through Him and brought forward to birth….‌ And the kephale of woman is man, because she was taken from his flesh and has him as her source.‌ Likewise, the kephale of Christ is God, because He is from Him according to nature.‌²

. . .

¹  Fasullo, L.‌ (n.‌d.‌).‌ What about the word Kephale ("head") in the New Testament? https:/‌‌/‌‌searchingtogether.‌org/‌‌kephale.‌htm

²  Cunningham, L.‌, Hamilton, D.‌J.‌, & Rogers, J.‌ (2000).‌ Why Not Women: A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership.‌ YWAM Publishing.‌

‌

[TheGloryLand]

13 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

With regard to the headship passages, here is an extract from a book my wife and I just published:

Church Leadership

In a nutshell, complementarian wives cannot take on leadership roles in society where they are ‘over’ their husbands.‌ And so, fueled by a common misconception that church leadership roles are hierarchical, despite Jesus’ command to the contrary (Matt 20:25-27), complementarians also restrict women in church roles to prevent them from violating their concept of male headship in the home.‌ Regarding church leadership, complementarians are especially quick to implement this practice, believing that Paul was addressing the possible violation of this spousal headship structure in passages like 1 Tim.‌ 2:11-15 and 1 Cor.‌ 14:34-35.

Head – Authority or Source?

What is clear is that this belief hinges on the principle of hierarchical headship in the home.‌ However, even though Ephesians 5:23 certainly speaks of the husband as the head of the wife, the biblical era meaning of head (Gk.‌ kephale) is source¹ and not rank, status, or position of headship.‌ Note that the text says, “the husband is the head of [not over] the wife, even as Christ is the head of [not over] the church,” for Christ is our source of life.‌

Someone might ask, what of 1 Corinthians 11:3, which reads, “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God”? Here, the term “head” (Gk.‌ kephale) is also understood as “source” or “origin” without the idea of rank and conveying the concept of chronology rather than hierarchy.‌

To further substantiate this, the sequence in 1 Corinthians 11:3 of Man – Christ, Wife – Husband, and Christ – God does not illustrate a hierarchy.‌ A hierarchical meaning would get conveyed as Wife – Husband, Man – Christ, Christ – God.‌

Thirdly, the hierarchical interpretation of this passage begs the question, is the ascended Christ, the Son of God, under God? As the Word, equal to God, He relinquished His equality for our salvation.‌ But His equality with God has been restored.‌ He has received all authority in heaven and earth.‌

Order Given by Chronology of Source

“. ‌.‌ . the head of every man is Christ” means Adam got made by Christ.‌ “.‌ .‌ .‌ the head of the woman is man” means Eve came from Adam. It also describes that period when a husband provided physical and spiritual resources, which, unlike his wife, he could readily access.‌ “. . . the head of Christ is God” points to Christ coming from God, begotten of God, when He as God became flesh to become the man, Jesus Christ.‌

In their 2000 book, Why Not Women, Cunningham, Hamilton, and Rogers cite Cyril of Alexandria of the 5th century, who said,

Thus we say that the kephale of every man is Christ, because he was made through Him and brought forward to birth….‌ And the kephale of woman is man, because she was taken from his flesh and has him as her source.‌ Likewise, the kephale of Christ is God, because He is from Him according to nature.‌²

. . .

¹  Fasullo, L.‌ (n.‌d.‌).‌ What about the word Kephale ("head") in the New Testament? https:/‌‌/‌‌searchingtogether.‌org/‌‌kephale.‌htm

²  Cunningham, L.‌, Hamilton, D.‌J.‌, & Rogers, J.‌ (2000).‌ Why Not Women: A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership.‌ YWAM Publishing.‌

‌

Do you believe that Christ, is not just our source. But Jesus, is the son of God. The three are one, the trinity. I ask, because you’re nondenominational or none. Many none, are very Liberal. You can correct me please. Thanks TGL

Edited April 23, 2023 by TheGloryLand

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

Do you believe that Christ, is not just our source. But Jesus, is the son of God. The three are one, the trinity. I ask, because you’re nondenominational or none. Many none, are very Liberal. You can correct me please. Thanks TGL

Yes, Christ is not just our source. He is the Son of God (John 20:31). He is God (John 1:1, 20:28).

[TheGloryLand]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Yes, Christ is not just our source. He is the Son of God (John 20:31). He is God (John 1:1, 20:28).

Can you answer the Trinity part for me please, thank you. I wanna make sure you’re not a Jehovah witness..

[BrotherTony]

15 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

With regard to the headship passages, here is an extract from a book my wife and I just published:

Church Leadership

In a nutshell, complementarian wives cannot take on leadership roles in society where they are ‘over’ their husbands.‌ And so, fueled by a common misconception that church leadership roles are hierarchical, despite Jesus’ command to the contrary (Matt 20:25-27), complementarians also restrict women in church roles to prevent them from violating their concept of male headship in the home.‌ Regarding church leadership, complementarians are especially quick to implement this practice, believing that Paul was addressing the possible violation of this spousal headship structure in passages like 1 Tim.‌ 2:11-15 and 1 Cor.‌ 14:34-35.

Head – Authority or Source?

What is clear is that this belief hinges on the principle of hierarchical headship in the home.‌ However, even though Ephesians 5:23 certainly speaks of the husband as the head of the wife, the biblical era meaning of head (Gk.‌ kephale) is source¹ and not rank, status, or position of headship.‌ Note that the text says, “the husband is the head of [not over] the wife, even as Christ is the head of [not over] the church,” for Christ is our source of life.‌

Someone might ask, what of 1 Corinthians 11:3, which reads, “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God”? Here, the term “head” (Gk.‌ kephale) is also understood as “source” or “origin” without the idea of rank and conveying the concept of chronology rather than hierarchy.‌

To further substantiate this, the sequence in 1 Corinthians 11:3 of Man – Christ, Wife – Husband, and Christ – God does not illustrate a hierarchy.‌ A hierarchical meaning would get conveyed as Wife – Husband, Man – Christ, Christ – God.‌

Thirdly, the hierarchical interpretation of this passage begs the question, is the ascended Christ, the Son of God, under God? As the Word, equal to God, He relinquished His equality for our salvation.‌ But His equality with God has been restored.‌ He has received all authority in heaven and earth.‌

Order Given by Chronology of Source

“. ‌.‌ . the head of every man is Christ” means Adam got made by Christ.‌ “.‌ .‌ .‌ the head of the woman is man” means Eve came from Adam. It also describes that period when a husband provided physical and spiritual resources, which, unlike his wife, he could readily access.‌ “. . . the head of Christ is God” points to Christ coming from God, begotten of God, when He as God became flesh to become the man, Jesus Christ.‌

In their 2000 book, Why Not Women, Cunningham, Hamilton, and Rogers cite Cyril of Alexandria of the 5th century, who said,

Thus we say that the kephale of every man is Christ, because he was made through Him and brought forward to birth….‌ And the kephale of woman is man, because she was taken from his flesh and has him as her source.‌ Likewise, the kephale of Christ is God, because He is from Him according to nature.‌²

. . .

¹  Fasullo, L.‌ (n.‌d.‌).‌ What about the word Kephale ("head") in the New Testament? https:/‌‌/‌‌searchingtogether.‌org/‌‌kephale.‌htm

²  Cunningham, L.‌, Hamilton, D.‌J.‌, & Rogers, J.‌ (2000).‌ Why Not Women: A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership.‌ YWAM Publishing.‌

‌

Your position sounds like something I find in many non-denominational and liberal churches. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Your position sounds like something I find in many non-denominational and liberal churches. 

I have never cared about any church position ahead of a biblical one.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
added a full stop.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

2 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Can you answer the Trinity part for me please, thank you. I wanna make sure you’re not a Jehovah witness..

I said of Jesus, "He is God" (John 1:1, 20:28). To be clearer, Jesus is God and is equal to God the Father (John 10:30). I'm 100% evangelical.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
added John 10:30.

[TheGloryLand]

7 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

I have never cared about any church position ahead of a biblical one.

What made this Independent Baptist forum, interest to you, you being none denomination. Thank you, for answering my direct questions. This will help me and others. You’re probably not kJ only, but that don’t bother me. I don’t know if to much training have affected you. Dr.