The Southern Baptist church versus Catholics

[TheGloryLand]

I remember when the talks were always about the Catholics, and all the leaders sexual hidden activities. Now the Southern Baptist Church is getting a taste of it.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/13/1117362904/southern-baptists-doj-investigation-sexual-abuse

Sinners are sinners, and will get caught. What we do in the darkness will come out into the light. 

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

I remember when the talks were always about the Catholics, and all the leaders sexual hidden activities. Now the Southern Baptist Church is getting a taste of it.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/13/1117362904/southern-baptists-doj-investigation-sexual-abuse

Sinners are sinners, and will get caught. What we do in the darkness will come out into the light. 

Not just the Southern Baptists, my friend. IFB churches have long had a history of the same thing, and have been dealing with it for years. Joe Combs, Dave Hyles, Jack Schaap and many other IFB people have been linked to and prosecuted for sexual abuse, or sex outside of their marriages. Jack Hyles had a trial and a friend, Voyle Glover wrote a book about this escapade in JH's life. A friend, Jeri Massi, a graduated of Bob Jones University, and author of childrens books as well as a 2 volume book, Valkyrie, has a very list of such abuses in side the IFB circles on her blog. I'm glad the SBC finally has to answer for these cases, though. I know that our church had a youth pastor (before Vivian and I started attending and joined) that was removed and prosecuted for sexual misconduct. 

[TheGloryLand]

10 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Not just the Southern Baptists, my friend. IFB churches have long had a history of the same thing, and have been dealing with it for years. Joe Combs, Dave Hyles, Jack Schaap and many other IFB people have been linked to and prosecuted for sexual abuse, or sex outside of their marriages. Jack Hyles had a trial and a friend, Voyle Glover wrote a book about this escapade in JH's life. A friend, Jeri Massi, a graduated of Bob Jones University, and author of childrens books as well as a 2 volume book, Valkyrie, has a very list of such abuses in side the IFB circles on her blog. I'm glad the SBC finally has to answer for these cases, though. I know that our church had a youth pastor (before Vivian and I started attending and joined) that was removed and prosecuted for sexual misconduct. 

I like the way you changed from the Southern Baptist Church, to the Independent Baptist Church, Sinner’s. Can you give me the list of names, of the Southern Baptist ministers too. I think they mention around 100 in the article.

 

Thanks BT

[1Timothy115]

1. I wouldn't use NPR or administrators of the DOJ (both secular entities) as a measure for what is happening within the Christian religion. They appear out to attack Christianity and diminish Christ's authority in the U.S. and around the world.

2. Just my thought that both you (TGL) and (BT) are doing harm to faith in Jesus Christ by constantly attacking one another's denominations. 

3. I'm not attempting to justify any of the INDIVIDUAL leaders within any denomination who practice or were involved in sexual sins. Know this, all Christians need to "know your sins will find you out" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." 

We could all use some time reading 1 John 3 & 4. 1 John 4:11 "Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." 

[BrotherTony]

6 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

I like the way you changed from the Southern Baptist Church, to the Independent Baptist Church, Sinner’s. Can you give me the list of names, of the Southern Baptist ministers too. I think they mention around 100 in the article.

 

Thanks BT

Baptists are Baptists. Southern Baptist churches are just as independent as the churches in the IFB movement. They're autonomous, not controlled by a hierarchy, though certain proponents of the cooperative within the SBC would like to think there is a hierarchy, and are even fighting to make sure there is one (lawsuit between Will McRamey and the North American Missions Board and Kevin Ezell). ) If Mr. Ezell and the NAMB gets their way in court, which is doubtful since the SCOTUS has sent it back to a lower court because of improprieties on the part of Mr. Ezell and the NAMB, there will be the possibility of a hierarchy, though churches will continue to remain autonomous until such a constitution and other documents can be drawn up. This has been a seven year fight. 

Why would I supply names of SBC pastors if you seemingly already have them in the article? Would be sort of superfluous and redundant, wouldn't it? And the problem with many that are listed in the article is that many of them were accused, but nothing was ever proven. Not so as with the IFB pastors. 

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

1. I wouldn't use NPR or administrators of the DOJ (both secular entities) as a measure for what is happening within the Christian religion. They appear out to attack Christianity and diminish Christ's authority in the U.S. and around the world.

2. Just my thought that both you (TGL) and (BT) are doing harm to faith in Jesus Christ by constantly attacking one another's denominations. 

3. I'm not attempting to justify any of the INDIVIDUAL leaders within any denomination who practice or were involved in sexual sins. Know this, all Christians need to "know your sins will find you out" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." 

We could all use some time reading 1 John 3 & 4. 1 John 4:11 "Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." 

We could also realize that just because sin is pointed out that it doesn't necessarily mean we are "casting stones." The motive behind and the mentioning of the sin or the people doesn't necessarily make it wrong. The ones mentioned by me are well documented, publically known sins. Just because something is mentioned also doesn't mean that there is no love there. To add to this, I'm not attacking anyones religion. I'm just as independent and fundamental as anyone here in the Biblical perspective. As I've stated, churches who associate with the SBC, the "convention" only being in service one week per year during the annual meeting, are all autonomous Baptist churches. So, there really is no difference except in how they decide to run their churches, what translations and music they decide to use, and whether or not they lean towards "reformed" theology, or towards free will. 

[MikeWatson1]

As an aside  ....There is also a difference in the way the SBC defines what the body of Christ is and what other ifb churches define it as.

For the SBC it is all redeemed and pretty much the same as the Family of God.

For some other ifb churches the body of Christ is of a  visible and local assembly.  A different entity than the Family of God. 

 

It either speaks of the body as an institution in the generic sense of all churches. Like 'the horse' or 'the bar'..  or is of one in particular like 'at Corinth'.. or lastly as the 'yet future' local and visible heavenly Jerusalem assembly. 

Not to derail the thread but to show a key difference. 

 

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, MikeWatson1 said:

As an aside  ....There is also a difference in the way the SBC defines what the body of Christ is and what other ifb churches define it as.

For the SBC it is all redeemed and pretty much the same as the Family of God.

For some other ifb churches the body of Christ is of a  visible and local assembly.  A different entity than the Family of God. 

 

It either speaks of the body as an institution in the generic sense of all churches. Like 'the horse' or 'the bar'..  or is of one in particular like 'at Corinth'.. or lastly as the 'yet future' local and visible heavenly Jerusalem assembly. 

Not to derail the thread but to show a key difference. 

 

I don't know of many if any churches that cooperate with the SBC that teach what you infer. Have you ever been a member of a church the cooperates with the SBC? There may be a few that believe they are part of a "universal church," as you seem to be inferring, but, I've never been in one and I've been a member of four since 2001. I know of several IFB affiliated churches that have taught that they were universal church, though they claim to be autonomous, local assemblies. 

[MikeWatson1]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I don't know of many if any churches that cooperate with the SBC that teach what you infer. Have you ever been a member of a church the cooperates with the SBC? There may be a few that believe they are part of a "universal church," as you seem to be inferring, but, I've never been in one and I've been a member of four since 2001. I know of several IFB affiliated churches that have taught that they were universal church, though they claim to be autonomous, local assemblies. 

True, well I heard the SBC had a break from other independent churches by taking on the 'invisible, universal' teaching on the body of Christ.  The likes of the ABA and BMA I think mostly kept the local, visible teaching. 

 

I always thought having the invisible, universal teaching was a marker of a reformation, protestant church.. which the baptist union of NZ and England have.

 

I guess it depends who has picked the teaching up. The majority of all churches now have a universal, invisible body of Christ.

 

  I suppose an independent Baptist church can pick it up and not be connected with the reformation, but I think that is where the teaching started. 

[TheGloryLand]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:54 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

1. I wouldn't use NPR or administrators of the DOJ (both secular entities) as a measure for what is happening within the Christian religion. They appear out to attack Christianity and diminish Christ's authority in the U.S. and around the world.

2. Just my thought that both you (TGL) and (BT) are doing harm to faith in Jesus Christ by constantly attacking one another's denominations. 

3. I'm not attempting to justify any of the INDIVIDUAL leaders within any denomination who practice or were involved in sexual sins. Know this, all Christians need to "know your sins will find you out" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." 

We could all use some time reading 1 John 3 & 4. 1 John 4:11 "Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." 

When the truth is being shared, I don’t see no harm, now he that see sin, and stay quiet, sin the more.

7 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

True, well I heard the SBC had a break from other independent churches by taking on the 'invisible, universal' teaching on the body of Christ.  The likes of the ABA and BMA I think mostly kept the local, visible teaching. 

 

I always thought having the invisible, universal teaching was a marker of a reformation, protestant church.. which the baptist union of NZ and England have.

 

I guess it depends who has picked the teaching up. The majority of all churches now have a universal, invisible body of Christ.

 

  I suppose an independent Baptist church can pick it up and not be connected with the reformation, but I think that is where the teaching started. 

I believe those Baptist churches, that must tithe to a mother church or convention, are not independent. 

[BrotherTony]

9 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

When the truth is being shared, I don’t see no harm, now he that see sin, and stay quiet, sin the more.

I believe those Baptist churches, that must tithe to a mother church or convention, are not independent. 

Could you please show me where a Baptist church "tithes to a mother church or convention"? I know of no Baptist church that does this. Again, TGL, your interpretation of what is true, isn't. Please, stop with the assumptions. 

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Could you please show me where a Baptist church "tithes to a mother church or convention"? I know of no Baptist church that does this. Again, TGL, your interpretation of what is true, isn't. Please, stop with the assumptions. 

11 FINANCIAL FACTS OF THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION

 

By Ronnie Floyd

Facts are our friends. Without the facts, one cannot determine reality. Without facing reality, it is impossible to chart a successful future. This is not only true for us personally, but for our churches as well as our Southern Baptist Convention.

Each of our churches has the privilege to join in our grand vision of reaching the world for Christ. We do this by giving monies through the Cooperative Program, which is our way to fund Great Commission work together statewide, nationally, and internationally.

Today, I share with you 11 Financial Facts of the Southern Baptist Convention. This is our reality. These facts are our friends because from here, we launch to the future.

These facts are not my opinions; they are facts about our financial status following the fiscal year from October 1, 2012 through September 30, 2013. Following the presentation of these facts, I will extend three brief observations.

1. $482,279,059 was given in Total Cooperative Program by our churches through the State Convention through the SBC Fiscal Year, October 1, 2012, through September 30, 2013.

2. $188,001,276 was received by the SBC Executive Committee directly in order to distribute to our SBC entities:

• $183,419,803 from state conventions
• $4,581,473 from individuals and churches
• 38% on average was sent by the states to the National SBC CP Allocation Budget

3. $298,859,256 of the $482,279,059 was reported as the State Convention Share of Total Cooperative Program in order to conduct their Great Commission ministries.

4. 28,853 churches reported giving through the Cooperative Program on the latest Annual Church Profile report. Of the 46,124 churches, LifeWay reported that at least 8,846 churches did not submit an ACP report.

5. 17,721 churches did not self-report any giving through the Cooperative Program on the latest ACP report.

• $25,352,778 was received for the Cooperative Program from non-ACP reporting churches; therefore, when a church does not report Cooperative Program gifts on the ACP, it does not necessarily mean these churches did not give through the Cooperative Program.

6. 7.5% less monies was received by our churches over the past five years.

• $12.1 billion in 2008 to $11.2 billion in 2013

7. 5.6% is the percentile of decline of the National Cooperative Program over the past five years.

• $194 Million to $183 Million

8. $57,004,211 was reported by the North American Mission Board for the 2013 Annie Armstrong Easter Offering for North America Missions.

9. $154,057,852 was reported by the International Mission Board for the 2013 Lottie Moon Christmas Offering for International Missions.

10. $777,452,659 was reported by the most recent ACP for 2013 Southern Baptist Convention gifts to “Great Commission Giving”, which is defined by the ACP as “total amount of all money given to Southern Baptist Mission causes by the congregation.”

• When you take this total and subtract Cooperative Program and the two major mission offerings, it means that Southern Baptist Convention congregations gave $84,111,698 to other Southern Baptist Missional endeavors.

11. $1,294,701,479 was reported as Total Mission Expenditures by congregations in the 2013 ACP (defined as “Total amount of all money given to Southern Baptist and non-Southern Baptist mission causes.”)

• When you subtract the $777,452,659 of Great Commission Giving from this figure, it means that Southern Baptist congregations gave an additional $517,248,659 to direct church mission trips or projects or non-Southern Baptist Convention mission causes. There is no way to quantify what was used for specific church mission trips or projects as compared to non-Southern Baptist Convention mission causes.

3 Brief Observations

1. Due to the increasing lostness in the world, each church needs to find a way to give now through our Cooperative Program and additionally, give more now than ever before, so we can continue advancing the gospel together. 

2. For the churches giving to mission causes apart from Southern Baptists, consider reallocating some of that money or even all of it to our Southern Baptist mission causes. 

3. Pastor and church leader, talk with your church’s financial team about increasing your church’s commitment to the Cooperative Program of the Southern Baptist Convention.

In Closing

In closing, this is not about money and finances as much as it is about advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ at an accelerated pace. Together, we can do more than we can ever do by ourselves.

Yours for the Great Commission,

Ronnie W. Floyd

Dr. Ronnie Floyd is currently serving as the President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

 

[1Timothy115]

So, member churches of the SBC are not independent?

OK, I get it.

However, I believe this discussion needs to be elsewhere.

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

11 FINANCIAL FACTS OF THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION

 

By Ronnie Floyd

Facts are our friends. Without the facts, one cannot determine reality. Without facing reality, it is impossible to chart a successful future. This is not only true for us personally, but for our churches as well as our Southern Baptist Convention.

Each of our churches has the privilege to join in our grand vision of reaching the world for Christ. We do this by giving monies through the Cooperative Program, which is our way to fund Great Commission work together statewide, nationally, and internationally.

Today, I share with you 11 Financial Facts of the Southern Baptist Convention. This is our reality. These facts are our friends because from here, we launch to the future.

These facts are not my opinions; they are facts about our financial status following the fiscal year from October 1, 2012 through September 30, 2013. Following the presentation of these facts, I will extend three brief observations.

1. $482,279,059 was given in Total Cooperative Program by our churches through the State Convention through the SBC Fiscal Year, October 1, 2012, through September 30, 2013.

2. $188,001,276 was received by the SBC Executive Committee directly in order to distribute to our SBC entities:

• $183,419,803 from state conventions
• $4,581,473 from individuals and churches
• 38% on average was sent by the states to the National SBC CP Allocation Budget

3. $298,859,256 of the $482,279,059 was reported as the State Convention Share of Total Cooperative Program in order to conduct their Great Commission ministries.

4. 28,853 churches reported giving through the Cooperative Program on the latest Annual Church Profile report. Of the 46,124 churches, LifeWay reported that at least 8,846 churches did not submit an ACP report.

5. 17,721 churches did not self-report any giving through the Cooperative Program on the latest ACP report.

• $25,352,778 was received for the Cooperative Program from non-ACP reporting churches; therefore, when a church does not report Cooperative Program gifts on the ACP, it does not necessarily mean these churches did not give through the Cooperative Program.

6. 7.5% less monies was received by our churches over the past five years.

• $12.1 billion in 2008 to $11.2 billion in 2013

7. 5.6% is the percentile of decline of the National Cooperative Program over the past five years.

• $194 Million to $183 Million

8. $57,004,211 was reported by the North American Mission Board for the 2013 Annie Armstrong Easter Offering for North America Missions.

9. $154,057,852 was reported by the International Mission Board for the 2013 Lottie Moon Christmas Offering for International Missions.

10. $777,452,659 was reported by the most recent ACP for 2013 Southern Baptist Convention gifts to “Great Commission Giving”, which is defined by the ACP as “total amount of all money given to Southern Baptist Mission causes by the congregation.”

• When you take this total and subtract Cooperative Program and the two major mission offerings, it means that Southern Baptist Convention congregations gave $84,111,698 to other Southern Baptist Missional endeavors.

11. $1,294,701,479 was reported as Total Mission Expenditures by congregations in the 2013 ACP (defined as “Total amount of all money given to Southern Baptist and non-Southern Baptist mission causes.”)

• When you subtract the $777,452,659 of Great Commission Giving from this figure, it means that Southern Baptist congregations gave an additional $517,248,659 to direct church mission trips or projects or non-Southern Baptist Convention mission causes. There is no way to quantify what was used for specific church mission trips or projects as compared to non-Southern Baptist Convention mission causes.

3 Brief Observations

1. Due to the increasing lostness in the world, each church needs to find a way to give now through our Cooperative Program and additionally, give more now than ever before, so we can continue advancing the gospel together. 

2. For the churches giving to mission causes apart from Southern Baptists, consider reallocating some of that money or even all of it to our Southern Baptist mission causes. 

3. Pastor and church leader, talk with your church’s financial team about increasing your church’s commitment to the Cooperative Program of the Southern Baptist Convention.

In Closing

In closing, this is not about money and finances as much as it is about advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ at an accelerated pace. Together, we can do more than we can ever do by ourselves.

Yours for the Great Commission,

Ronnie W. Floyd

Dr. Ronnie Floyd is currently serving as the President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

 

And? Ronnie Floyd isn't the "end all" truth of the SBC. In fact, he's quite in question with many churches who give to the cooperative, which, at this point, many are not. Many are withholding funds or directing them to certain entities within the cooperative, such as the Annie Armstrong offering for missions. Many have stopped giving to the NAMB, Lifeway, the ERLC, and the IMB because of complications and inconsistancies within these organizations, and the problems with the leaders of these entities. 

There is no compulsion to give, in spite of Mr. Floyds plea. These churches remain autonomous churches regardless of what Mr. Floyd, you, or anybody else says. No entity controls any of these churches, and they don't give account to a corporate head. As I've stated many times here, the "Convention" is only in an active state during the meetings each year to vote for the president and other offices. The president is nothing more than one to try and steer the group of churches toward a certain mission, but he has no real influence over any of the churches but his own if he is a pastor. 

2 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

So, member churches of the SBC are not independent?

OK, I get it.

However, I believe this discussion needs to be elsewhere.

Actually, they are. And if you've not been a part of the SBC, you don't get anything. Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm tired of the continual bashing of the SBC, and frankly the IFB as well. It's counterproductive to the work of the Lord. 

[TheGloryLand]

4 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

So, member churches of the SBC are not independent?

OK, I get it.

However, I believe this discussion needs to be elsewhere.

 Needs to be elsewhere, where?