Our Appearing I'm Pondering

[Jerry]

You lost me there.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Perfect means complete. There are multiple verses in the Bible itself that refers to God's Word being perfect - and we find God's warning in Revelation 22 referring to the completed Word of God, not to add to or take away with the completion/perfection of God's written revelation to man.

[Jerry]

The following is a partial entry from the Way of Life Encyclopedia - quoting it mainly for the references:

DAY OF CHRIST. The period of time when Christ will take control of the world through judgment and His Second Coming (1 Co. 1:8; 5:5; 2 Co. 1:14; Ph. 1:6, 10; 2:16; 2 Th. 2:2, 3).

[1Timothy115]

23 hours ago, Jerry said:

You lost me there.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Perfect means complete. There are multiple verses in the Bible itself that refers to God's Word being perfect - and we find God's warning in Revelation 22 referring to the completed Word of God, not to add to or take away with the completion/perfection of God's written revelation to man.

Completely agree with the meaning of perfect being complete. Jesus Christ is the perfect to come.

The second clause of that verse is where the thought came from. Will we have had our reconstituted physical body combined with our spirit and soul at judgement before Christ. It was just a passing thought; the context of that verse is about future knowledge and perfection after the Lord comes not about physical or corporeal reconnection with our spirit. Not in those verses anyway. Which brings me to another verse which may shed further light on what we shall be.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[Jerry]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the word perfect here is neuter - if it was referring to Jesus (ie. a person), it would be masculine.

Also, Jesus was already complete when He was on earth the first time. The only thing that was not complete until He experienced it was suffering for our sins:

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But by the time any of the NT was written, that was already past - this is still referring to something future (ie. after the time of the writing of the NT church epistles).

I am not sure where you are going with the rest of your post above, unless you are stating it is when Jesus returns (well, rapture as He is dealing with the church in that verse) that we are made like Him - which makes sense, as we will get our resurrected bodies then.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Jerry

[1Timothy115]

6 hours ago, Jerry said:

The following is a partial entry from the Way of Life Encyclopedia - quoting it mainly for the references:

DAY OF CHRIST. The period of time when Christ will take control of the world through judgment and His Second Coming (1 Co. 1:8; 5:5; 2 Co. 1:14; Ph. 1:6, 10; 2:16; 2 Th. 2:2, 3).

I didn't know David Cloud had an encyclopedia. I may get one of these for my bookshelf. Yes, I may make a separate study of this but first I want to look through references I presently have. Sometimes the ISBE is good for questions like this.

[1Timothy115]

2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the word perfect here is neuter - if it was referring to Jesus (ie. a person), it would be masculine.

Also, Jesus was already complete when He was on earth the first time. The only thing that was not complete until He experienced it was suffering for our sins:

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But by the time any of the NT was written, that was already past - this is still referring to something future (ie. after the time of the writing of the NT church epistles).

I am not sure where you are going with the rest of your post above, unless you are stating it is when Jesus returns (well, rapture as He is dealing with the church in that verse) that we are made like Him - which makes sense, as we will get our resurrected bodies then.

Just drifting through some scriptures and far more shallow than they deserve. I'll look into the days reference you provided. I didn't examine the gender of the word "perfect" but wouldn't want to argue over it, I'll take your word for that at present. Probably applies to knowledge and understanding.

[Jerry]

Way of Life Encyclopedia

It is definitely worth getting - whether ebook or hardcover. I have both. The hardcover is a big book with 718 pages, two columns per page. Even if someone disagrees with some of his conclusions (though I have no problem with what I have read), he gives tons of Bible references and backs up his research. That link above will show you what kind of articles he has in his Encyclopedia - everything from a Bible dictionary defining every name and hard word in the KJV, to articles on cults and denominations (including Bible studies refuting the false doctrines of the cults), things about church history. Bible versions, Bible prophecy, geography, topical studies, extrabiblical Christian terms, types, Bible customs, articles on issues of Christian living, among others.

[SureWord]

"That which is perfect is come" in I Cor. 13 is charity. Paul expounds on this more Col. 3:14 and Eph. 4:11-16.

Until we are perfected in love in the body of Christ we will need saints with the gifts of the Spirit. Notice in Ephesians 4:13 we will no longer need those with the gifts and callings of God once the stature of Christ reaches its fullness.

As far as I'm concerned that will not happen until we all see him "face to face". 

No Greek needed.

[Jerry]

That makes NO sense whatsoever. Charity was already there, not something that was still to come.

Funny you have such an issue with the Greek underlying the King James Bible (we wouldn't have the KJV without the underlying Greek and Hebrew - which the TR is exactly the same in meaning as we find in the English of our KJV), but you have no problem with a wacko youtube preacher that adds his own imagination to the Bible to bring things out of it that NEVER were in it to begin with.

[Hugh_Flower]

On 3/11/2022 at 6:38 PM, Jerry said:

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the word perfect here is neuter - if it was referring to Jesus (ie. a person), it would be masculine.

Also, Jesus was already complete when He was on earth the first time. The only thing that was not complete until He experienced it was suffering for our sins:

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But by the time any of the NT was written, that was already past - this is still referring to something future (ie. after the time of the writing of the NT church epistles).

I am not sure where you are going with the rest of your post above, unless you are stating it is when Jesus returns (well, rapture as He is dealing with the church in that verse) that we are made like Him - which makes sense, as we will get our resurrected bodies then.

1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it

 

this passage seems to disagree with your first thought, as Jesus in this passage is referenced as “which”. 
 

 

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Flower said:

this passage seems to disagree with your first thought, as Jesus in this passage is referenced as “which”. 

I was referring to 1 Corinthians 13, not every use in the Bible. Also, 1 John indicates clearly who is in view. The argument with 1 Corinthians 13 is that that passage does not.

So where are you going in your disagreement? You think God is still giving sign gifts to the churches today - you think that there are actually churches today that are obeying the instructions in 1 Corinthians 12-14 on the use of signs gifts? There are none I have ever seen - though I have seen churches where the commands given in 1 Corinthians 14 is applied to foreign language speakers and singers.

[Hugh_Flower]

2 hours ago, Jerry said:

I was referring to 1 Corinthians 13, not every use in the Bible. Also, 1 John indicates clearly who is in view. The argument with 1 Corinthians 13 is that that passage does not.

So where are you going in your disagreement? You think God is still giving sign gifts to the churches today - you think that there are actually churches today that are obeying the instructions in 1 Corinthians 12-14 on the use of signs gifts? There are none I have ever seen - though I have seen churches where the commands given in 1 Corinthians 14 is applied to foreign language speakers and singers.

Nope, just showing that Jesus is referenced in the Non-masculine Neutral. 
I believe it’s in reference to the second advent. 

[Jerry]

Then why doesn't it say when that which is perfect comes again?

Also, perfect in the Bible does not mean sinless, it means complete or mature spiritually (when referring to a person). Jesus was already complete when He came the first time, except for the matter of learning obedience through suffering - but He did learn that (ie. was completed already in that manner according to Hebrews) before He died, arose, and ascended to Heaven. Though the Word of God is already completed/perfected with the writing of the book of Revelation (and passages within the Bible itself refer to the Word as already perfect - the law of the Lord is perfect, the perfect law of liberty, etc.).

[Hugh_Flower]

Because the second advent 

55 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Then why doesn't it say when that which is perfect comes again?

Also, perfect in the Bible does not mean sinless, it means complete or mature spiritually (when referring to a person). Jesus was already complete when He came the first time, except for the matter of learning obedience through suffering - but He did learn that (ie. was completed already in that manner according to Hebrews) before He died, arose, and ascended to Heaven. Though the Word of God is already completed/perfected with the writing of the book of Revelation (and passages within the Bible itself refer to the Word as already perfect - the law of the Lord is perfect, the perfect law of liberty, etc.).

I don’t know about you but I don’t know everything perfectly yet, but at the second advent we return in our perfect bodies. 
Christ on his first coming was still in fallen flesh, he was not in a perfect body yet either, this is why he was still tempted by sin.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Hugh_Flower

[Jerry]

Christ's body was sinless - there was no sin in Him. He was tempted to prove He wouldn't sin, not because He had a sin nature. The sin nature comes through the man (according to Romans 5) - that is why Christ had a virgin birth. He was not conceived of the seed of man but by the Holy Spirit.

Also, the passage you refer to does not say when perfect knowledge comes, but when THAT which is perfect comes - a specific thing (or according to what you said earlier, a specific person - which I disagree it is referring to).

When the Bible refers to believers being mature/perfect, it is ALWAYS presented as something we can strive for and achieve here and now - or the promises and commands to do so would be fruitless and contradictory. No believer has "arrived" in this life - but all can go on unto perfection (Hebrews 5-12-6:1):

Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (ie. mature spiritually - same underlying word in Greek as used in the next verse), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deuteronomy 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1 Chronicles 29:9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Proverbs 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Matthew 5:46-48 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (We CAN be perfect - mature spiritually - in the manner of how we treat our enemies, we can be like God/Jesus by obeying His commands and following His example)

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Ephesians 4:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:3-4 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

References to the Word of God being perfect (ie. complete - see also Revelation 22:18-19):

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.