Franklin Graham Thwarts the Cause of Christ

[John81]

http://www.covenantnews.com/newswire/ar ... 42879.html
Graham Discourages 'Illegal' Evangelizing in China
Missionary draws ire for call to obey Chinese law
The Charlotte Observer / News Wire

http://www.covenantnews.com/newswire/ar ... 42878.html
'Evangelist' Franklin Graham Opposes Missionary Work at Beijing Olympics

http://www.covenantnews.com/blog/archives/042880.html
Franklin Graham: Quisling Pawn for Red China
The Charlotte Observer

[JerryNumbers]

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 5:29 (KJV)

Seems like this verse tells all of it, and Mr Graham is ignoring it.

But I would tell those who go against the laws of China to do so knowing and being prepared to pay the price for breaking the law if they're caught. If they are not prepared to pay the price, them perhaps they should not do so.

[John81]

It's one thing for a preacher to make nice with a hostile government in order to gain access for the Gospel but it's completely wrong to discourage the spreading of the Gospel.

Very true Jerry, we must always count the costs of being a Christian and obeying our Lord. If we are honest with ourselves we will see that whatever cost we must pay will be mighty cheap in comparison to what Christ paid and the eternal reward we have in store.

[JerryNumbers]

The point I wanted to make is, we are to obey God when the land we live in has laws that goes against God's way.

But if I were in Mr. Grahams position, I surely would not tell people to go to China and disobey the laws of that land, what I would express to them is something like this, we ought to obey God, do what God has called each of us to do, now if God has called you to do missionary work in China, remember this, you just might have to pay a great price, perhaps even with you life, so if you go, be prepared to pay the price what ever it might be. That is something each of us has to make our own choice about.

If I was called by God to go to China, I would hope that I would do the right thing, but I have not walked in those shoes, so I can't say what I would do even thought I know what the right thing to do would be.

It SEEMS to me that PERHAPS Mr. Graham did not do the right thing when he went to China, that perhaps he thought more favor with their government and about his safety without trusting God with his life and his safety

[Calvary]

I suppose many here will disagree with me, but having had plenty of first hand experience in talking with veteran missionaries not only in China, but other "closed" countries, I would say to any other zealots that think one can preach openly, evangelize openly or distribute tracts openly in a country like China are woefully ignorant and not only that, proud and unteachable. Quoting "Obey God rather than men" sounds pious and brave, but the only results would be to put the real Christians in danger.

My friend Mike Roberts has planted 5 churches in Vietnam, a seriously closed country, an average attendance of over 6,000 in these 5 churches and he has never preached one time in any of them. There are laws and the Lord who wrote Romans 13 did not mean the laws of the United States only when he wrote that passage. There are ways to get the job done within the confines of culture, legal issues, and persecution that will honor the Lord Jesus, see souls saved and not expose the real Christians whose work and labor continues to reach untold millions in these countries where they toil under heavy burdens the likes you and I could never imagine.

My friend Eddy Mills in China would say to your face, Go home, you can be of no help here. Brother Mills is another that has taken the long road and seen much fruit.

Typically, Americans just won't be told what to do. Brash, loud and proud. No one is going to tell me that I can't hand out gospel tracts!! And off they go, never amounting to anything on these kinds of fields. They are followed by security, taken aside, removed of their evangelistic materials and sent home where they cry, Foul! Persecution! My Rights have been Violated!!

Billy Graham, whether you like it or not is right.

God bless,

Calvary

[John81]

I believe the Gospel should be spread in whatever way it can best be spread in a particular area. Whether that's bold open air preaching or quiet, behind the scenes witnessing, so long as the Gospel is put forth. I don't presume to know what's best on the ground on any missionary field nor would I presume to tell a missionary overseas how to do what God has called them to do.

We help support a native missionary in India and we support missionaries through our church. There is no doubt the methods of the native missionary in India differ from the efforts of a missionary couple in L.A. who minister to the large Japanese community there (for example).

My issue with Graham, Franklin in this instance, is his open calling for people to not spread the Gospel.

[Jerry]

Billy Graham' date=' whether you like it or not is right.[/quote']

Actually, it's Franklin. He is just continuing the compromise he has been involved in for a while. When Katrina happened and that Tsunami the year before, he sent aid packages with no Christian literature/gospel tracts, etc. to these souls who were in need of salvation and hope from the Lord. This was openly declared to be his policy - and he gave some lame reason why. In other words, he sent them aid (social gospel), but did not help them out spiritually - which is what he is supposed to do.

Of course, when you are yoked up with Catholics and other unsound doctrinal groups, it's hard to get the truth out anyway!!

[JerryNumbers]

I suppose many here will disagree with me, but having had plenty of first hand experience in talking with veteran missionaries not only in China, but other "closed" countries, I would say to any other zealots that think one can preach openly, evangelize openly or distribute tracts openly in a country like China are woefully ignorant and not only that, proud and unteachable. Quoting "Obey God rather than men" sounds pious and brave, but the only results would be to put the real Christians in danger.

My friend Mike Roberts has planted 5 churches in Vietnam, a seriously closed country, an average attendance of over 6,000 in these 5 churches and he has never preached one time in any of them. There are laws and the Lord who wrote Romans 13 did not mean the laws of the United States only when he wrote that passage. There are ways to get the job done within the confines of culture, legal issues, and persecution that will honor the Lord Jesus, see souls saved and not expose the real Christians whose work and labor continues to reach untold millions in these countries where they toil under heavy burdens the likes you and I could never imagine.

My friend Eddy Mills in China would say to your face, Go home, you can be of no help here. Brother Mills is another that has taken the long road and seen much fruit.

Typically, Americans just won't be told what to do. Brash, loud and proud. No one is going to tell me that I can't hand out gospel tracts!! And off they go, never amounting to anything on these kinds of fields. They are followed by security, taken aside, removed of their evangelistic materials and sent home where they cry, Foul! Persecution! My Rights have been Violated!!

Billy Graham, whether you like it or not is right.

God bless,

Calvary

If the real Christian is scared of being in danger while standing for God's WHOLE TRUTH, them he has a real problem.

[Calvary]

Those who major in street preaching and claim that this is the only way will not understand the constraint some Christians have to face. They will insist this is the way or the highway. But are they willing to go to jail for their conviction? They never have to work with Christians who may have to spend time in jail, lose their jobs, sell their homes and many other troubles they will not be willing to go through. If you are a foreigner trying to preach openly in a foreign land, the most you might get is deportation. A local will not be so fortunate. Are you willing to pay the price to practise what you preach?... It is so easy to make all kind of brave claims until you have to walk your talk...

That is my friend Charles Schong in Singapore, a Chinese man who ministered in China for many years.

American Christians can blather all they like about rights, dedication, making the committment and on and on. Sitting where you sit it's easy.

If you went to Vietnam and tried any of the fool things you are talking about, you'd find yourself in the slam, not having done anything that amounts to anything for the cause of Christ. God did not call us to be risky, but he said be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. I agree with Charles. we talk big, but have no cross to carry.

After having seen the fruit first hand of missionaries in China that work to be allowed under other auspices and promote public relations, start businesses that are good for the community, I side with them. They tell a different story than that of some IFB preacher tells it on this side of the ocean. After having seen first hand the work in Vietnam that some wise guy from America would put in jeapordy for his "stand tough" policy, I make no apologies to you, beloved your wisdom is not from Heaven on this issue. It is earthly and sensual.


Evangelize the Chinese for sure, but at least learn how to do it so that your fruit will remain.


God bless,

Calvary

[Jerry]

We are talking about Franklin Graham here - and he does this in other places, not just China - so what you are saying is just an excuse for his overall compromise. Yes, be wise - but if not taking a stand and witnessing is someone's normal mode of working, that is compromising, not being prudent.

[Calvary]

Jerry,

Try it Vietnam my friend. Then tell me about "taking a stand" as they deport you and then imprison all the Christians you had contact with.


Some of you on this board appear to be clueless in this issue. I say that with charity.

God bless,

Calvary

[Calvary]

I wish to add this:

What is your position regarding evangelism in China?

There are two issues. There's the evangelism that the church in China does. I'm not addressing that. What I'm addressing are outsiders coming into China for the Olympics. And my caution is that if people are coming on tourist visas, let's say, from the United States, and want to get involved in the evangelistic efforts for the Olympics, they need to be aware of Chinese law. For one, they can get in trouble. Two, they could even jeopardize the church. So my caution is, be aware of the law. And an Associated Press reporter asked me if I supported evangelism during the Olympics by outside groups. I would not be supportive of outsiders coming into the country and breaking Chinese law. That's what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about the Chinese Christians, the Chinese church doing what it does. I would not attempt to tell them what to do or how to do it. The church in China has been growing pretty rapidly without anybody's help. So I don't think a few Christian groups coming into China is going to make a hill of beans worth of difference during the Olympics.
I support evangelism, of course. I'm just saying for any group coming in to check the law, and don't get yourself or the church in trouble. Because when the Olympics are over and everybody's gone, the church is still there. Christians from outside could do or say something that could jeopardize church-state relations for years to come. And there have been some tremendous improvements in the last 20 years.



I still say he is right on the money.

God bless.

[JerryNumbers]

I'll give you a Bible example.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Acts 5:29 (KJV)

You can go back and read the other verses that comes before this one, i suppose you would say that Peter and those with him were risky. For they got thrown in the slammer.

As I previously said, I don't know what I woudl do, but I hope i woudl do the right thing, obey God.

[Calvary]

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Wonder how Peter got so messed up.

God bless,
Calvary

[JerryNumbers]

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Wonder how Peter got so messed up.

God bless,
Calvary

Brother, Peter & the gang were not messed up, but you surely are. They did not let the government stop them from preaching Jesus Christ crucified and proclaiming the Word far and wide.

But I see that is exactly what you would do.

And just imagine most of the apostles died because they would not keep their mouths shut, which you would freely do and tell others to do the same.

Brother, I feel sure you will never suffer for God's Word with the theology that your proclaiming.