Presidential Christianity

[ptwild]

I found this aritcle on wikipedia and it reminded me of a previous thread in which some people were discussing the spiritual merits of some of our early presidents. I think it is interesting to find that many of our founding fathers and presidents were unabashedly not what most on this board would call christians. For a country that is so often stated to be found upon christianity, it sure is interesting to see how those founders defined christianity. I for one am shocked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... filiations

[HappyChristian]

The list is very much like what I have found through my own study - although I didn't know Hoover was Quaker.

Episcopalians and Methodists of years gone by taught salvation, so I believe that a good chunk of those men could have been saved (from reading quite a bit of Washington's own words, I do believe he was saved). Of course, unless someone comes right out and says it, who's to know, right?

There were a lot of deists around back then. Ben Franklin was one, I do believe, and he heard Whitefield preach...but never accepted Christ. I don't believe Jefferson was a Christian, because I have read his "Bible." It ends when the stone rolls in front of the tomb. Christ never rose in Jefferson's book, so he cannot have been saved (unless he was sometime after the printing of it).

Very interesting list, pt. Thanks for posting it.

[ptwild]

What I found intersting was that these men were open about their religious views. No where does it say that they even attempted to present themselves as Christians (other than the occasional visit to some random church on Sunday mornings). And what about all the Unitarians? Could you imagine if a staunch Unitarian ran for office today? The evangelical politicos would swallow him or her up alive.

[HappyChristian]

I think you're right. But one thing you may not know - when the country was first founded, no-one who believed in transubstantiation could hold public office....

[ptwild]

when the country was first founded, no-one who believed in transubstantiation could hold public office....

I guess that would explain the high percentage of Anglicans.

I think that the rebellious nature of the formation of our country is also a factor in the founder's particular beliefs. They had obviously come to think for themselves, independant of England, and that appears to have carried over to their personal life. I think it is also funny that people like to state that we have moved away from the ideas and views of the early Americans, and that we are some how "less religious" than they were, when the exact opposite is probably more accurate.

[HappyChristian]

I think you're right about the independence...and that has carried through for many, many years here in America. Personally, I don't think this country is "less religious" than when founded, but I do think it's less Christian - in both practice and belief. KWIM?

[ptwild]

Personally' date=' I don't think this country is "less religious" than when founded, but I do think it's less Christian - in both practice and belief. KWIM?[/quote']

I actually disagree. I believe that the Christians of the early days of our country would be labled very liberal by today's standards. Just look at what kind of man could become president back then. He had to have at least something in common with the majority's religious beliefs. By all accounts, the early Americans appear to have been free thinking idealists. They were rebels. I don't believe they adhered to anything that perceived itself as authorative. Not King George III and not the bible.

[HappyChristian]

Have you ever studied up on the preachers of that era (they were by and large a very interesting group of people!)? They taught freedom from government oppression from the pulpit. Many of the preachers actually led the men of their congregation to do battle. I think early Americans were free thinking idealists, and they were rebels against oppression (different than just rebels)...but I do believe more of them followed the Bible at least in principle than Americans do today.

Of course, there were less Americans then than there are today, so maybe if we looked at in percentage, it would be about the same, who knows?

[ptwild]

I have studied several Anglican priest of that period. I found that they came in two colors: one loyal to the Crown (after all, the British monarch is the head of the church) and the other preaching a devine right to freedom. There were no Bishops in the new world after the revolution and the British Bishops refused to ordain any Americans, so we were without Bishop for a several years. Danial Seabury had to travel to Scotland and in the dead of night a few rebellious British Bishops ordained him and sent him back to the states. Every Anglican Bishop in the U.S. can trace their apostolic succession back to Seabury.

[HappyChristian]

I have studied several Anglican priest of that period. I found that they came in two colors: one loyal to the Crown (after all' date=' the British monarch is the head of the church) and the other preaching a devine right to freedom. There were no Bishops in the new world after the revolution and the British Bishops refused to ordain any Americans, so we were without Bishop for a several years. Danial Seabury had to travel to Scotland and in the dead of night a few rebellious British Bishops ordained him and sent him back to the states. Every Anglican Bishop in the U.S. can trace their apostolic succession back to Seabury.[/quote']

My great (11 generations ago)grandfather was born in England, baptized Anglican (I have a picture of the church, which is still standing, and the font), came to America as an adult and became the first Baptist elder in America. Neat stuff! :Green

Yes, there were two colors, and you've nailed them. But there were other denominations - Congregationalist being the next in size. Methodism didn't really take off until after the war, and Baptists weren't too popular for quite a while.

I didn't realize there were no Anglican Bishops in America after the war. That is truly interesting, in light of it being the major denomination prior to...maybe that's why, though. Maybe many Americans identified it too much with England. Could that be when they began calling the church Episcopalian?

[ptwild]

Well, the King never sent bishops to the new world, only priest to lead local congregations. That's why there were no Bishops here after the war. And yes, it was after the revolution that we dropped the name "Chruch of England" and became The Episcopal Church. However, we are still all Anglicans and nothing changed but the name.

And that is very interesting about your ancestor, what was his name?

[HappyChristian]

His name was John Crandall. You can actually find out a lot if you google John Crandall first baptist elder in America. I was surprised how much info was on the net. But the family historian died a while back, so our line ends (on the net) with my mom and my uncle. My grandpa, who was also named John C, was raised Presbyterian, so Baptist hasn't been the family "religion" all the way down - although the church still stands that the first JC's son, Peter, who is our line, donated the land for. That's where they have family reunions most of the time.

My grandma C was raised basically Episcopalian. She had a foray into a few real doozies, but then ended up not practicing anything (neither did my g-pa).

But the American church does differ from the English church, doesn't it?

[ptwild]

But the American church does differ from the English church' date=' doesn't it?[/quote']

Maybe in liturgy, but as far as I know, not in doctrine. But you've got to remember that, like all religions, no two Anglican churches are the same. You'll find some that are ultra conservative (still using victorian english in their liturgy) and some that are far left liberal. They are really localized, so you usually find the liberal churches in California and the conservative churches in the south. Another interesting tidbit, the Episcopal Church would have been the state religion of the South had we won the civil war. That is why Saint Andrew's Cross appears on the Confederate Shield and the Confederate Battle Flag.

[HappyChristian]

I honestly don't think there would have been a state church in the CSA if the South had won - Maybe it would have been the predominant one, but the South was as freethinking at the time of that war as the whole was at the time of the first one. JMO.

[pep_3000]

I think early Americans were free thinking idealists, and they were rebels against oppression (different than just rebels)

They did not want to pay taxes and so they rebeled. And my understanding is that the taxes were less than in other parts of the British empire.