What Books Are You Reading?

[BrotherTony]

Lectures to My Students  Charles H. Spurgeon

[SureWord]

3 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Lectures to My Students  Charles H. Spurgeon

If you can get a hold of Surgeon's "John Ploughman's Talks" I encourage it especially a vintage print.

[BrotherTony]

21 minutes ago, SureWord said:

If you can get a hold of Surgeon's "John Ploughman's Talks" I encourage it especially a vintage print.

I think I've thumbed through this book, but haven't READ it. I probably should. It was in my former pastor's study. He may still have it...I'll have to check. Thanks.

[Jim_Alaska]

6 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Lectures to My Students  Charles H. Spurgeon

CHS lays it all out plain, simple and honest. He doesn't pull any punches in this book, I have always considered it a "must read".

[Bouncing Bill]

Culturally Responsive Practices in Speech, Language, and Hearing Sciences

Marlene B. Salas-Provance and Yvette D. Hyter

Edited September 25, 2021 by Bouncing Bill

[BrotherTony]

17 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Culturally Responsive Practices in Speech, Language, and Hearing Sciences

Marlene B. Salas-Provance and Yvette D. Hyter

BB...just a question...do you EVER read anything Biblically related? 

[Bouncing Bill]

15 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

BB...just a question...do you EVER read anything Biblically related? 

Sometimes. Not as much as when I was involved in the Lay Renewal Movement.  However, learning how people act and react across cultures can help in approaching others with Christ? Agree?

One quick example. Touching or rubbing the head of a child in our culture is acceptable, a sign of friendship. However, never touch the head of a Thai child. It is very insulting in their culture. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Bouncing Bill

[Jerry]

Back when we were discussing Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I downloaded The Cost Of Discipleship through the Scrib'd app and did start reading the first several chapters. Unlike in about 1996 when I originally read this book, I could not stomach the pro-Catholic monastic stance he takes in the early part of the book and therefore put the book on the shelf. In light of my desire for truth and to expose error, especially when it comes to error on how to be saved, it was always in the back of my mind to come back to this - but I have no desire to try to read more of that book.

So I tried doing a search tonight on Way Of Life Literature to see if they had any info on his beliefs - figuring that even if someone did not like the source of the article, if it mattered to them they could do due diligence and check out the quotes and page numbers - rather than getting mad at the person exposing the error, they could verify if what is stated in the article is in fact what Dietrich Bonhoeffer believed. This article does not specifically get into his works salvation which I had previously referred to, BUT it certainly is eye-opening to the rest of his beliefs (which I had never actually tried researching before - I had only ever read the one book of his, and was put off by it so never read anything else by him).

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/dietrich_bonhoeffer.php

[BrotherTony]

5 hours ago, Jerry said:

Back when we were discussing Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I downloaded The Cost Of Discipleship through the Scrib'd app and did start reading the first several chapters. Unlike in about 1996 when I originally read this book, I could not stomach the pro-Catholic monastic stance he takes in the early part of the book and therefore put the book on the shelf. In light of my desire for truth and to expose error, especially when it comes to error on how to be saved, it was always in the back of my mind to come back to this - but I have no desire to try to read more of that book.

So I tried doing a search tonight on Way Of Life Literature to see if they had any info on his beliefs - figuring that even if someone did not like the source of the article, if it mattered to them they could do due diligence and check out the quotes and page numbers - rather than getting mad at the person exposing the error, they could verify if what is stated in the article is in fact what Dietrich Bonhoeffer believed. This article does not specifically get into his works salvation which I had previously referred to, BUT it certainly is eye-opening to the rest of his beliefs (which I had never actually tried researching before - I had only ever read the one book of his, and was put off by it so never read anything else by him).

https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/dietrich_bonhoeffer.php

I don't agree with everything he teaches, but even those who don't hold specifically to all of the same beliefs/positions I hold can and often do have great, useable information! I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but many do. I'm not saying that this is what you're doing. I know that your reference back to Cloud's site and writings aren't something that I'm particularly fond of...him or his writings...but I will look on his site and read his writings if I'm wanting to research something. I don't have to like him or agree with him in all points to find things I do agree with.

[Jerry]

In this particular case, the article is mostly by someone else (another discernment ministry), introduced by Cloud.

In this case, the article gives quotes from his books that show that Bonhoeffer is not even saved, denying some of the fundamentals of the faith. So it is not a matter of personal preference and whether you glean something out of his writings or not - he is an unsaved heretic who should be warned again. Read him if you want, but God says this:

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Also:

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

3 John 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

A writer who will not embrace the truth and hold to it is not a source of spiritual food any true Christian should be partaking of - and that statement is consistent with God's Word. It is not a matter of personal preference. Someone is stepping on your toes because they questioned or critiqued a writer you like. Instead of getting upset or annoyed with the person doing so - IF YOU LOVE TRUTH AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST - you should be going to the Bible and comparing his writings to the Bible, and if there is any truth to what is being exposed about him and his doctrine, make the choice to embrace and hold to truth, not buck and kick because you don't like your idol being questioned. And yes, if you hold to any writer above the Word of God, then he has become an idol.

Prove the points in the article above wrong, then defend your writer - but if he does reject certain fundamentals of the faith and is a promoter or neo-orthodoxy, why are you holding on to a heretic?

Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

We can't reject Bonhoeffer in person, but if what is posted in that article is what he actually believed, then you need to make a choice: the truth of the Word of God or Bonhoeffer.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

[BrotherTony]

@Jerry I don't believe he's unsaved...I think he has interpreted some things differently, but I'm not going to go as far as to say his salvation is null and void! 

[Jerry]

I can certainly say he was unsaved based on his testimony found in his own writings - assuming they were not ripped out of context. There is no way in all of eternity - according to the Word of God - that he can be saved if he denied the virgin birth of Christ, His deity, His sinlessness, did not believe in the resurrection of Christ, believed in baptismal regeneration (for babies), denied a personal salvation and equated church membership with salvation, denied that Jesus Christ was the only way to God (ie. only way of salvation). That's a little different than having a different understanding of some Bible prophecy or having a different understanding or belief on a (minor, not fundamental doctrine) Bible difficulty. These are fundamentals of the faith and salvation - you cannot deny who Jesus is, His deity resurrection, etc. and still be trusting Him for salvation. There are reasons they are referred to as the FUNDAMENTALS of the faith - they are essential to salvation.

Granted, not everyone who comes to Christ understands all these things when they turn to Him for salvation - BUT no truly saved person will reject these fundamental doctrines when they learn of them from the Bible. If they do, they were never saved in the first place.

[BrotherTony]

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

I can certainly say he was unsaved based on his testimony found in his own writings - assuming they were not ripped out of context. There is no way in all of eternity - according to the Word of God - that he can be saved if he denied the virgin birth of Christ, His deity, His sinlessness, did not believe in the resurrection of Christ, believed in baptismal regeneration (for babies), denied a personal salvation and equated church membership with salvation, denied that Jesus Christ was the only way to God (ie. only way of salvation). That's a little different than having a different understanding of some Bible prophecy or having a different understanding or belief on a (minor, not fundamental doctrine) Bible difficulty. These are fundamentals of the faith and salvation - you cannot deny who Jesus is, His deity resurrection, etc. and still be trusting Him for salvation. There are reasons they are referred to as the FUNDAMENTALS of the faith - they are essential to salvation.

Granted, not everyone who comes to Christ understands all these things when they turn to Him for salvation - BUT no truly saved person will reject these fundamental doctrines when they learn of them from the Bible. If they do, they were never saved in the first place.

I've no proof that he did promote these things. In what I've read, he does have miscomprehension on some doctrines, but that doesn't equate to him not being saved. You're entitled to whatever you want to think...but by your own admission, you didn't read very much of him, so I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt!

[Jerry]

You're right - my personal opinion of his doctrines doesn't amount to much, which is why I asked you to verify if the above quotes were true or not. If they were not taken out of context, then they show the beliefs of an unsaved man. My position on gauging someone's salvation/doctrines/testimony by the Word of God is not opinion. The Bible is supposed to be our rule, our gauge, our canon, our guide, for all our practices and doctrines. If something or someone does not line up with the Word of God, they are wrong - regardless of whether you like them or not.

For the sake of the argument, if he truly waffled that much on his doctrine and was that unclear, how can anyone be spiritually benefitted by his writings - unless they want religious sentiment without truth. But that is the essence of neo-orthodoxy (and now emergent church writers) - question everything, don't go to the Bible for answers, but question the Bible, then water down everything so we can all be united.

If you can't be bothered to check out the actual quotes above that give actual page numbers of his stated beliefs and positions, why are you defending him? Because you don't like someone drawing a line and saying we should not cross that line if we love God's Word? Prove the statements wrong, and that ends all debate. This is not a hill I would die on (ie. Bonhoeffer specifically - yes to defending the truth, no to an individual writer).

You are 100% right to read whatever you want - eat poison all day if you like - but don't get upset or buck and kick because others warn against that poison. God's Word says a diet of false teachings, heretics, and learning from the ungodly WILL affect His people negatively. That is why I am warning against things like this.

Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Ouch! That's just my opinion. Actually, that's God's Word.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Someone that rejects the fundamentals of the faith and still gives spiritual teachings/writings to others fits at least two of the three things mentioned above (I would say all three, because if they denied the fundamentals of the faith it also still makes them a sinner).

[BrotherTony]

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

You're right - my personal opinion of his doctrines doesn't amount to much, which is why I asked you to verify if the above quotes were true or not. If they were not taken out of context, then they show the beliefs of an unsaved man. My position on gauging someone's salvation/doctrines/testimony by the Word of God is not opinion. The Bible is supposed to be our rule, our gauge, our canon, our guide, for all our practices and doctrines. If something or someone does not line up with the Word of God, they are wrong - regardless of whether you like them or not.

For the sake of the argument, if he truly waffled that much on his doctrine and was that unclear, how can anyone be spiritually benefitted by his writings - unless they want religious sentiment without truth. But that is the essence of neo-orthodoxy (and now emergent church writers) - question everything, don't go to the Bible for answers, but question the Bible, then water down everything so we can all be united.

If you can't be bothered to check out the actual quotes above that give actual page numbers of his stated beliefs and positions, why are you defending him? Because you don't like someone drawing a line and saying we should not cross that line if we love God's Word? Prove the statements wrong, and that ends all debate. This is not a hill I would die on (ie. Bonhoeffer specifically - yes to defending the truth, no to an individual writer).

You are 100% right to read whatever you want - eat poison all day if you like - but don't get upset or buck and kick because others warn against that poison. God's Word says a diet of false teachings, heretics, and learning from the ungodly WILL affect His people negatively. That is why I am warning against things like this.

Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Ouch! That's just my opinion. Actually, that's God's Word.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Someone that rejects the fundamentals of the faith and still gives spiritual teachings/writings to others fits at least two of the three things mentioned above (I would say all three, because if they denied the fundamentals of the faith it also still makes them a sinner).

As I've stated, I've read limited amounts of his writings...and most of that by assignment. What I've read doesn't equate to him not being saved. The attitude you're perveying here is one reason my wife and I left the IFB movement..a constant, "They're not saved" coming out of someone's mouth or in THEIR writings because they didn't agree with what was said. Nobody holds a perfect view or interpretation of Scripture, though we all should strive to have one. And as stated, I won't judge your salvation by the writer, nor will I judge his salvation by your opinion until I have read more of his works...and even then, I probably won't doubt his salvation...that's not my job...I'm told to preach the kingdom and defend the faith. So far, in my readings, I've found nothing that is terribly off-base with him. I'll let you know, though. I have more doubt of a man's salvation when he can't admit he's wrong and correct errors he's made (CLOUD)...doesn't seem very Godly to me!