Textual/version stance

[Guest Guest]

I think we both know for a fact that God's Word has indeed been lost and rediscovered at a later date at least a few times throughout history. Scripture records this fact (II Kings 2:8). There have been other times when God's Word was not available to His people' date=' such as during times of captivity. Scripture itself records that God's words have not been available to all of His people at all times.[/quote']


Annie...May I ask you a question?

[Jerry]

The Bible does not teach God's Word was lost to everyone - but that there were times when certain people did not have access to it. Judah's king not having a copy until it was found in the temple is not the same thing as no other copies being used by God's people until that one copy was found.

[Annie]

Sure, candlelight. Shoot!

[Guest Guest]

Do you attend a local Bible believing church? :smile

[Annie]

The Bible does not teach God's Word was lost to everyone - but that there were times when certain people did not have access to it. Judah's king not having a copy until it was found in the temple is not the same thing as no other copies being used by God's people until that one copy was found.

Jerry, I can't disagree with what you're saying here, since there's really no proof one way or the other. You cannot prove that certain of God's people had copies of the Law (which were generally stored by scribes and priests in the Temple), and I can't prove they didn't. All I was saying to Seth was that not all of God's people at all times have been able to know what God has said.

[Annie]

Do you attend a local Bible believing church? :smile

Yes, I do.

[Guest Guest]

Does your pastor teach/preach from the KJVO?

[Annie]

Does your pastor teach/preach from the KJVO?

No, he does not. He usually uses the New King James Version, but he also reads from other good translations, including the KJV.

[Guest Guest]

No' date=' he does not. He usually uses the New King James Version, but he also reads from other good translations, including the KJV.[/quote']


I gottcha. :smile

How do you feel about Tim LaHaye? I received 3 of his books in the mail today for my sister. She is actively involved in the RCC. She loved the "Left Behind Series" that came out years ago. Well, I have his "Prophecy Study Bible---NKJV", "The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy", and "Charting The End Times." I thought I ordered the KJVO Prophecy Bible, but I really don't think this was a mistake. :frog She has 4 Bibles...the Latin Vulgate, the NASB, the NIV, and the KJV 1611 AV. Do you think these materials will help a Catholic woman? I thought you might be the one person to ask on OB for an answer. BTW, this is a compliment. :thumb

[Annie]

How do you feel about Tim LaHaye? I received 3 of his books in the mail today for my sister. She is actively involved in the RCC. She loved the "Left Behind Series" that came out years ago. Well' date=' I have his "Prophecy Study Bible---NKJV", "The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy", and "Charting The End Times." I thought I ordered the KJVO Prophecy Bible, but I really don't think this was a mistake. :frog She has 4 Bibles...the Latin Vulgate, the NASB, the NIV, and the KJV 1611 AV. Do you think these materials will help a Catholic woman? I thought you might be the one person to ask on OB for an answer. BTW, this is a compliment. :thumb[/quote']

Tim LaHaye...Hmmm...I haven't read any of the Left Behind books or his Prophecy Study Bible, so I can't say. I will say that if I truly believed that God preserved His words only through the KJV, and that all other versions were misleading and poisonous, then I would not give someone a copy of any other Bible but the KJV. I wouldn't give what I think is poison to anyone, believer or not. Also, I'm not really sure that a prophecy Bible is what your sister needs...but you know her better than I do. It could be that a prophecy Bible would get her thinking about her soul's condition more than she has.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[Guest Guest]

Well, I thought it over earlier today...I thought that God may have wanted me to have the NKJV for OB. :lol I dunno? I did order the KJVO, but somehow the order got mixed up. Again, I don't believe in coincidences or accidents...in this respect. I really just wanted a second opinion.

My sister has gone to theology school through the RCC. I thought that these books might open her eyes up a bit to the "truth". She is asking questions, as is my oldest brother. My 2nd oldest brother always brings Baptists vs. Catholics into a discussion. He opens the door for me to witness to him. :smile My mother is in a Brethren nursing care facility in Wooster, OH. They also have Catholic Mass once a month. One of the pastors is a Baptist. He isn't IFB, though. She is getting quite an education.

Thanks, Annie. :thumb

[Annie]

Well, I thought it over earlier today...I thought that God may have wanted me to have the NKJV for OB. :lol I dunno? I did order the KJVO, but somehow the order got mixed up. Again, I don't believe in coincidences or accidents...in this respect. I really just wanted a second opinion.

My sister has gone to theology school through the RCC. I thought that these books might open her eyes up a bit to the "truth". She is asking questions, as is my oldest brother. My 2nd oldest brother always brings Baptists vs. Catholics into a discussion. He opens the door for me to witness to him. :smile My mother is in a Brethren nursing care facility in Wooster, OH. They also have Catholic Mass once a month. One of the pastors is a Bapitst. He isn't IFB, though. She is getting quite an education.

Thanks, Annie. :thumb

No problem.

[Guest Guest]

Seth, do you believe that the KJV Scripture preserves "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"? (Warning: This is a loaded question. )

No, God spoke many things that he did not choose to have recorded, otherwise we would have every word Jesus ever spoke, but I do believe that it preserves all of the scriptures. I also believe scripture cannot be broken. You are claiming that the scriptures contain errors, therefore they would be broken. Christ said that is not possible.

When he said:

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He was quoting, and referring to scripture.


"Psalm 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it."

"Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

I think we both know for a fact that God's Word has indeed been lost and rediscovered at a later date at least a few times throughout history. Scripture records this fact (II Kings 2:8). There have been other times when God's Word was not available to His people, such as during times of captivity. Scripture itself records that God's words have not been available to all of His people at all times.

I am not sure what you mean by II Kings 2:8. :puzzled: I am guessing you mean 2 Kings 22. If that is what you mean scripture wasn't lost, it was just that most of the nation had left God to such a degree that the temple was falling apart and they didn't even know what all was inside. Scripture was right where you would expect to find it, in the house of the Lord.

One of God's greatest judgements upon a land is when he makes his Word hard to find for the wickedness of the people. Gods Spirit will not always strive with man.

It is written:

"Amos 8:11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it."


At any rate, that wasn't what I meant by "lost". I was referring to the integrity of the text. Obviously "God's words have not been available to all of His people at all times", yet, it was not lost by any stretch of the imagination. You are claiming the Word of God, as used by his people provably back at least 1800 years, is corrupt. Apparently we needed men who denied numerous key doctrines of the scripture to "discover" the lost "truth" and make this "truth" once again available.

"Romans 11:2-5 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

[Guest Guest]

No' date=' God spoke many things that he did not choose to have recorded, otherwise we would have every word Jesus ever spoke, but I do believe that it preserves all of the scriptures.[/quote']

Hi Seth...I believe the reason that God did this was so that man would remain teachable. If God recorded everything, then man would be prideful, arrogant, and boastful with His Holy Word. He would think that he knows everything that God knows, and therefore would become like Satan himself. JMHO.

[Annie]

Right...So Jesus is not talking about "all" of the "words" (or "every word") that God has spoken. Let's look at what Jesus is saying, by examining the Scripture Jesus was quoting: Deuteronomy 8:1-3:
"All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers. And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years...And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." The object was manna. What was the lesson?



If it is not possible for men to "break" scripture in the way you're using the term, then why are there warnings given in certain books to those who add or take away words from those books? If you believe it is not possible to "break" scripture, then why do you think certain versions are "broken?" Apparently, Scripture can be (and has been) broken.

Broken, BTW, has other meanings. I don't understand where your use of the term comes from (in Scripture). Where does Christ say that Scripture "cannot be broken"? It would be interesting to note the context of His statement.



I think we've talked about these verses before on another thread...maybe not. I would be a heretic if I didn't affirm that these verses are completely and thoroughly true. Whatever God says is "very pure," since He is the Holy One. His words can be nothing but true, and the judgments He makes do endure forever, because He is the great I AM, never changing. I honestly don't see what these verses have to do with the KJV being the only source of those perfect and true words, or of all of His true, pure words having all been gathered in one (and only one) place, in only one human language.



I've seen you use the word corrupt a few times now. I've meant to ask you what you mean by it, but have forgotten. So, I'll ask you now. IYO, does it mean the same thing as broken (as in, the Scripture cannot be broken)?



Are you talking about men like Erasmus, the Roman Catholic?



Could you explain the inclusion of this text at this point of the discussion? I'm not making any connections here...Might be that it's too late at night!