David Cloud

[Anon]

What's with David Cloud these days?   I used to really like him, but now I feel like he is causing more division than anything else. The passage in the Bible that says "I am of Paul, I am of Cephus, I am of Christ" seems like what he is doing.   He is going around saying bad things about anyone who doesn't fit into the perfect definition of the perfect IFB church.

 

His latest attack was on Ken Ham.  Now, Ken Ham does not have all our same convictions.  He doesn't claim to.  I don't even think he claims to be Independent Baptist.  But what he does do is travel the country encouraging people to trust Christ as Savior, and encouraging this new generation of young people to dig into Creation and not believe the doctrine of evolution being pushed so strongly by the world.  Ken Ham is doing an AMAZING work right now for God.   So what if he went to a Christian Contemporary concert?  Really...that negates everything else he is doing?  God has something to say about that too.   And I don't even think Ken Ham is doing anything out of the wrong motives, as mentioned in the passage below.  I think David Cloud needs to do more rejoicing and less complaining.....

 

James 1:And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. 

[Anon]

From his recent article, here are the questions he asks about whether or not someone is considered neoevangelical:

 

 

 

If someone argues that these ministries aren’t New Evangelical and that they do not actually reject separatism, I would like for them to send me the documented answers to the following questions: 

First, when has that ministry issued a statement delineating and supporting the doctrine of biblical separation as applies both to ecclesiology and to the world?

Second, when has that ministry renounced the popular but unscriptural philosophy “In essential unity; in non-essentials liberty; in all things charity”?

Third, when has that ministry supported and promoted a fundamentalist, separatist ministry? 

Fourth, when has that ministry taken a stand against Billy Graham and all of the evil he has done through his New Evangelical philosophy? 

Please send me the published statements or the sermons and lectures in which they have taken such stands. 

 

 

Wait.  I mean, it sounds great.... but the thing is, he never claims to be a church.  Also, where in the Bible does it say a Creationist Museum guy who goes around doing seminars has to have a written doctrinal statement outside of the Bible?  Also all the other points...they are all pretty much extra-scriptural as far as the jOB that Ken Ham is doing.   And what in the world does a public stand against Billy Graham have to do with any of this?  Why does Billy Graham even matter?  Huh?  Wait...our church doesn't even have a statement against Billy Graham.....maybe we aren't real Baptists!  Uh oh!

[Ukulelemike]

Do you know that David Cloud is an active missionary in Nepal? He's living for Christ in one of the most demonic places on earth, and witnessing, first-hand, how a little conpromise can open vast doors to Satan to destroy Christians. He is involved in things that most of us will never know, much less be willing to do.

 

Now, I agree that it seems at times that he spends a bit too much time in some of his articles justifying himself and his ministry, but think: what is it that he is really doing? He's adjuring believers to a pure faith in Christ. He's warning people about those who, on one hand, claim Christ, but on the other, are actively involved in things that are truly ungodly, which, while they can do, because of those who follow them, others may follow them into their ungodly activities.

 

So, is it wrong to beloieve that Christians should live in a holy manner? Is it wrong to warn others of the things well-known, famous Christian leaders are doing that will lead to worldliness and compromise? I say, in fact, that this is exactly what we as believers should be doing.

 

By the way, if you read his articles, you'll find that, generally, David Cloud praises the good many have done, and gives credit where due in their teachings and activities. But then, yes, he warns about compromise by those same people.

 

I have to admit, the one things I have never heard anyone say about David Cloud, is that he is a hypocrite, or that he is involved in compromise. Except those who call him a Bible corrector because he (rightly) says that there have been changes made in such things as spelling and updating of punctuation, in the KJV since the 1611 came out. That's not Bible correcting, its just fact. The Bible most KJV folks hold is NOT the 1611 version, but a later edition with changes in it. That's not correcting, its fact.

 

And I have never once read anywhere that Cloud is trying to turn anyone to be his disciples, (though as I recall, Paul DID tell people to follow Paul, though that was dependent upon Paul following Christ).

 

I admit to not having read his article on Ken Ham. Is this the latest in his articles? I'll look it up.  I admit I wasn't impressed with Ham's recent 'debate' with Bill Nye, though really, the forum was really poor for doing a real debate, so it really wasn't his fault. I just heard Nye say a lot that has been long-since proven false, but was not addressed by Ham. But again, bad forum, so not really his fault. I think it was designed to come out with no clear winner, just two guys having their say.

[Ukulelemike]

From his recent article, here are the questions he asks about whether or not someone is considered neoevangelical:

 

 

 

Wait.  I mean, it sounds great.... but the thing is, he never claims to be a church.  Also, where in the Bible does it say a Creationist Museum guy who goes around doing seminars has to have a written doctrinal statement outside of the Bible?  Also all the other points...they are all pretty much extra-scriptural as far as the jOB that Ken Ham is doing.   And what in the world does a public stand against Billy Graham have to do with any of this?  Why does Billy Graham even matter?  Huh?  Wait...our church doesn't even have a statement against Billy Graham.....maybe we aren't real Baptists!  Uh oh!

Billy Graham matters because he is the epitomy of new evangelical compromise, widely accepted by Christian leaders everywhere, and kind of the gold-standard for modern-day evangelists.

 

As for a doctrinal statement, personally, any site purporting to be a Christian ministry, I look for a doctrinal statement. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so-I want to know what a man or ministry believes before I consider his work.

[Anon]

I think the articles written by David Cloud on doctrine are excellent!    I just don't agree with all the name calling he does.  He even called out my husband's home pastor at one point, by name, and it was over something really super little, like a church he visited once, or preached for once, or something....it was like secondary separation stuff.  My husband's pastor is a well known IFB pastor with strong standards and a very fundamental church.

 

I think that the articles he posts are fine and good and helpful, but I do not think he should be doing so much finger pointing.    His article on being neoevangelical would be just as effective without speaking poorly of Ken Ham's ministry.  He does praise Ken Ham for what he does, but then turns around and says we shouldn't join in with them because they speak in other churches other than Baptists.

 

Because of the specific things Ken Ham does, I do not think this is a bad thing...it is getting the truth out.  And you cannot have good salvation doctrine without believing in Creation...it is a foundation everyone needs.

[Anon]

Billy Graham matters because he is the epitomy of new evangelical compromise, widely accepted by Christian leaders everywhere, and kind of the gold-standard for modern-day evangelists.

 

As for a doctrinal statement, personally, any site purporting to be a Christian ministry, I look for a doctrinal statement. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so-I want to know what a man or ministry believes before I consider his work.

 Yeah but should every church have Billy Graham in their doctrinal statement?  That's kind of weird.  Who even cares about Billy Graham?  We don't....

[Anon]

Here's a thought....churches will have soldiers visit their church, or public officials, or maybe even a fireman to speak to the kids, or whatever.  What would be bad about having Ken Ham in your church to teach your members how to refute evolution?

 

I'm not saying we would have him...we haven't and prOBably won't....my dad does seminars on Creation anyway.  haha.  But still....if a person is not claiming to be an evangelist or something....what is the prOBlem?   He says himself his focus is Creation...not doctrine or splitting hairs on things like that...he wants to reach as many people as possible with Creation, and you can't do that if you narrow yourself to one single religion.    We can't overturn the country's stronghold on evolution without having someone willing to go to ALL churches and discuss Creation....right?

[Ukulelemike]

 Yeah but should every church have Billy Graham in their doctrinal statement?  That's kind of weird.  Who even cares about Billy Graham?  We don't....

A LOT of people care about Billy Graham, and read and follow him, and this is why we should care about him: because he is dangerous.

 

Example: one of the men in my church, a very bright fellow, reads and has used Billy Graham for Bible studies, and I have had to point out to him Graham's errors, not just in general, but even in what he was using. This smart Christian guy was missing the error, because, well, it was Billy Graham! Who questions Billy Graham? He didn't know there was any issue with Graham. And because of his popularity, any godly IFB church should be speaking and warning against him. That's the point of all this.

[Ukulelemike]

Here's a thought....churches will have soldiers visit their church, or public officials, or maybe even a fireman to speak to the kids, or whatever.  What would be bad about having Ken Ham in your church to teach your members how to refute evolution?

 

I'm not saying we would have him...we haven't and prOBably won't....my dad does seminars on Creation anyway.  haha.  But still....if a person is not claiming to be an evangelist or something....what is the prOBlem?   He says himself his focus is Creation...not doctrine or splitting hairs on things like that...he wants to reach as many people as possible with Creation, and you can't do that if you narrow yourself to one single religion.    We can't overturn the country's stronghold on evolution without having someone willing to go to ALL churches and discuss Creation....right?

He may not claim to be an evangelist, but he IS-because he is a travelling preacher, even if he jujst calls it science, it is biblical based and theological. Thus he IS an evangelist.

 

Personally, I think it would be wise for these organizations oto be working under the authority of a local church. It would save a lot of this trouble.

[Anon]

My husband preaches against Billy Graham as a side note when speaking of heretics but I didn't know it was a required doctrinal statement...kwim?

[HappyChristian]

I dearly love the creation message that Ken and his cohorts at the museum (one of my college mates works in the office, and her hubby is editor of their magazine) present.  It is a truth that creation and the truths of God's wondrous works are unknown by too many and unaccepted by too many others (even Christians have begun to apply man's "reasoning" to creation, thus creating a real dearth of the foundational basis of creation).  Ken is on a mission, one I believe that God has given him.  Is he IFB? Nope. Does he use the KJV? Nope.  Would our church have him come speak? Nope.  

 

We have had people in the past who are not preachers who speak for maybe 5 minutes - not to present doctrinal issues, but to just introduce themselves. Were they IFB? Nah.  But, again, they weren't presenting doctrine. Creation is a doctrine. It is a vital, central doctrine.  And, as such, anyone who would teach it at our church would need to be in agreement - in both word and practice - with our stand.  

 

That said...our church has taken groups to the museum. And our Creation Club gets a lot of material from them. Creation Club, though, is not a church ministry, per se.  We (the lady who started it and me) are members of the church, and all of the groups from which we cull information are vetted by one of the pastors to make sure stuff is right.  

 

Honestly, I don't believe that Cloud is writing things purposely to cause division - although we know from Christ Himself that divisions will come.  When there is a line drawn, there will be division when people cross it - because people will dislike the truth presented (I'm not referring to you, here, Kita!). 

 

Para-church organizations will come under attack because they aren't under the authority of a church. But then, if they were under a church, there would be the attacks from people who would say that the church is trying to shove things down folks' throat, that they are misusing monies to create theme-park-like venues, etc.  I honestly don't see a prOBlem with them being separate.

 

I admire David Cloud while not agreeing with everything he says/does. And I admire Ken Ham while not agreeing with everything he says/does. (and I don't think we have anything written down about BGraham...but he is mentioned once in a while....once in a great while)

[Anon]

Yes I think Ken Ham's ministry is most appropriate done para-church so that he can reach more people for the truth, and for his museum.

 

As such, I don't think it's even appropriate for David Cloud to address it negatively, because it does not even disguise itself as a Baptist church ministry.  It's a totally separate entity and never claims to be anything else.

[heartstrings]

Don't good pastors "reprove and rebuke" their people quite often? Didn't Paul do the same to other men of God? Don't those who dish it out need it once in a while too? Doesn't the Bible say something about those who "despise reproof"? And doesn't judgment "begin at the house of God"?

Edited November 19, 2014 by heartstrings

[HappyChristian]

I disagree that he shouldn't address the issue...to me, it falls under the same category as colleges which attract students from all over the country. A public ministry (and the museum would be a ministry as well as an educational effort simply because it presents truths from God's Word) is subject to public comment, whether positive or negative. 

[Anon]

True, but I think the yardstick with which he is measuring some of these places is the wrong measuring tool.  You would not measure a self proclaiming Independent Baptist Church College with the same yardstick as you would measure a self proclaimed para church ministry that does not identify with a denomination.

 

Just like we do not judge a President we vote for with the same yardstick as we judge the pastor we vote in.

 

You have to be careful to use appropriate measuring tools.  I think David Cloud is trying to lump Ken Ham in with other IFB ministries, but that's not comparing them correctly.

 

And I guess I don't agree fully with the degree of secondary separation David Cloud espouses, especially considering some of the VERY good men he has called out in the past.