Father, Forgive Them

[John81]

How can I think that God would put limits on His forgiveness for others when I see that He put no limits on His forgiveness for me?

We are fully forgiven because we have been born again in Christ. Those Jesus and Stephen were requesting forgiveness for were yet lost sinners, and therefore forgiven of nothing at that point.

 

Even if God chose to forgive the particular sin He was asked to forgive, that would only spare them current and/or eternal punishment for that particular sin. If they were ever born again in Christ, they would be fully forgiven all sins just as we have been. If they died yet lost they would find themselves in hell even though a particular sin had not been held against them.

[Invicta]

I would agree that the specific sins were the context: those crucifying Jesus, and those stoning Stephen. 

 

That jesus' request was granted is plain, because He is God, and He Himself forgives sin. No reason to believe it wasn't the case here. Though I don't see in the context of it having to do with any other sins, or their general lost condition. Though at least one present DID, indeed, find faith and salvation in Christ, the thief next to Jesus.

 

In the case of Stephen's prayer, we can't know whether this was forgiven or not-this is between the Lord, Stephen and those stoning him. It is possible they weren't forgiven for this, unless they found salvation, but I suppose we'll know one day. It wouldn't have mattered if they continued on in sin, except that, if they were forgiven for this one, perhaps their eternal jucdgment will not be as bad as if they were held against them.

 

It is possible some at the cross were converted because:

 

Matt 24:54  Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. 

[John81]

It is possible some at the cross were converted because:

 

Matt 24:54  Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. 

Yes, but then all of their sins would have been forgiven at that moment.

 

The point you raise would lead us to ask if Jesus was only praying for those few who may have been converted or for all those who put Him to death.

 

If we broaden this consideration to include Stephen, we only know of Saul (who became Paul) being converted from among his killers; so was Stephens prayer only applicable to Saul/Paul or was he praying for all those putting him to death?

[ThePilgrim]

Yes, but then all of their sins would have been forgiven at that moment.

 

The point you raise would lead us to ask if Jesus was only praying for those few who may have been converted or for all those who put Him to death.

 

If we broaden this consideration to include Stephen, we only know of Saul (who became Paul) being converted from among his killers; so was Stephens prayer only applicable to Saul/Paul or was he praying for all those putting him to death?

None of us really know who of the people that Jesus or Stephen prayed for in the instances discussed except for Saul became saved or not, so why do so many assume they did not?  Surely nOBody assumes that the only people that were saved are mentioned in the scripture and those not saved are not.

[John81]

None of us really know who of the people that Jesus or Stephen prayed for in the instances discussed except for Saul became saved or not, so why do so many assume they did not?  Surely nOBody assumes that the only people that were saved are mentioned in the scripture and those not saved are not.

For my part, I'm not assuming any of those not mentioned as being saved were not saved at some point, nor am I assuming they all were.

 

We know from Scripture that many of the religious leaders (unnamed) eventually came to Christ, along with thousands of unnamed others, both of Jews and Gentiles. At the same time, many more did not come to Christ.

 

Is it your belief that when Jesus and Stephen prayed that God would forgive their killers they were praying for their salvation rather than praying simply that their specific sin of killing them would not be charged to them?

 

The reason I brought this topic up is because of how I've heard it preached, then the most recent (and new to me preaching) I heard, and the impact how one views these prayers has on others (our) prayers.

[ThePilgrim]

James 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. KJV

If this is the case, as I believe it is, praying that a specific single sin be forgiven and no others would seem to be an empty gesture in that it would seem to accomplish nothing.  The person prayed for is still going to hell because of all the other sins.

 

It is my belief that just as happens today the Holy Spirit convicts and leads one to understand their need of repentance and salvation and it is by this method that The Father answered the Son's prayer . . . . by the Holy Spirit acting in the lives of those prayed for and not by an instant granting of forgiveness without repentance.  

[John81]

 

James 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. KJV

If this is the case, as I believe it is, praying that a specific single sin be forgiven and no others would seem to be an empty gesture in that it would seem to accomplish nothing.  The person prayed for is still going to hell because of all the other sins.

 

It is my belief that just as happens today the Holy Spirit convicts and leads one to understand their need of repentance and salvation and it is by this method that The Father answered the Son's prayer . . . . by the Holy Spirit acting in the lives of those prayed for and not by an instant granting of forgiveness without repentance.  

 

I don't think their asking for forgiveness in these cases was about salvation per se.

 

I fully agree that any sin will send one to hell if they are not born again, but Scripture seems to indicate there will be degrees of punishment in hell. Therefore, even if some or all of those who killed Jesus or Stephen died lost, if their sin of killing them were forgiven them, that sin wouldn't increase their eternal torment.

 

Such a prayer request could also have had a temporal impact in that if God forgave them of that sin, and therefore withheld temporal punishment they may have had coming, that could have spared them much temporal pain and/or early death, and potentially enabled them more chance to hear and respond to the Gospel.

 

We are in agreement with one another and Scripture that there is only one means of salvation and once saved all sins are forgiven. We are also in agreement with one another and Scripture that if a person commits a million sins and all but one are forgiven that person, without Christ, will be in hell with every other lost sinner.

 

The question at hand is just exactly what were Jesus and Stephen praying for and how can/does that impact our prayers? From the various possibilities put forth here how one understands their prayer could make for a very different understanding on the matter.

[Washed Clean]

God couldn't and wouldn't grant a prayer uttered by God the Son? I don't think so....

I've heard that, at least in the case of Christ, that the prayer was intended for God not to strike them all dead right at that point, since they were crucifying His Son. Of course, it's all opinion, because we don't actually know the reason, but that fits better with scripture.

Please see my post on Paul the Heretic but HappyChristian you don't know "the prayer was intended for God not to strike them all dead right at that point" that is just foolish nonsense to deflect from the real meaning of what he was saying. He was saying that without any form of repentence, without any acknowledgement that Jesus was god by these people Jesus was still able to and did grant salvation. Dear --- people salvation was a free gift for all mankind through his son, thanks to Paul the heretic you all seem to have a really tough time accepting this. I preached a sermon on this exact topic. You MUST use Occum's Razor, Jesus actually meant "Father forgive them" and he was actually talking about ALL OF MANKIND, that actually lines up beautifully with scripture (Jesus's words not Pauls) ² And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



Edited to remove usage of God's name in vain. HC

[No Nicolaitans]

You MUST use Occum's Razor, 

 

That would be Occam...

 

Use a logician's principle that is used by scientists to figure out the Bible? 

[Genevanpreacher]

I fully agree that any sin will send one to hell * if they are not born again, but Scripture seems to indicate there will be degrees of punishment in hell * . 

 

It does * ?

 

If true belief in Christ is the only way to heaven, then does it not follow that unbelief is the only way to hell?

 

In my understanding, there is no sin that a man can do to get to hell. It is a natural process since the 'tree of life' was taken away from us.

Mankind is headed to hell without the belief 'with all their heart' in Jesus Christ. Why the first comment * ?

 

* I have heard this teaching before, so where are the verses that 'show' differing degrees, for my knowledge and other's reading this topic.

Thanks.

[John81]

Mankind is headed to hell because mankind is sinful. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse sinful man so he can live with God in heaven.

 

One of the points Jesus made with regards to those who didn't believe in Him was that it would be more tolerable for those of Sodom than for them come judgement day. That would seem to indicate that in some way certain lost sinners will receive greater punishment in hell than others. Even the least possible punishment in hell will be terrible so it's not like "the least of sinners" will be getting a break; but the "worst of sinners" (as the Lord judges them to be) will in some way receive an even more terrible experience in hell.

[Genevanpreacher]

Mankind is headed to hell because mankind is sinful. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse sinful man so he can live with God in heaven.

 

One of the points Jesus made with regards to those who didn't believe in Him was that it would be more tolerable for those of Sodom than for them come judgement day. That would seem to indicate that in some way certain lost sinners will receive greater punishment in hell than others. Even the least possible punishment in hell will be terrible so it's not like "the least of sinners" will be getting a break; but the "worst of sinners" (as the Lord judges them to be) will in some way receive an even more terrible experience in hell.

 

I disagree with your surmising that it literally will be "tolerable for those of Sodom".

 

The Lord was giving a comparison here, not an actual 'experience', as per your

saying,  "it's not like "the least of sinners" will be getting a break".

 

Sodom will be expecting their just punishment, as they deserved it, because they knew it was sin,

whereas the one's Jesus Christ was talking to didn't even think there was a possibility of hell, because they thought they were 'the chosen people of God'.

In other words, it will be a surprise to the Jews, whereas the Sodomites were 'wise' to the outcome of their sin.

 

Is there any other scripture that would explain what you said better?

I am open to the truth, I have just not ever found this subject to be found

in my travels through the scriptures, but maybe I wasn't looking at it in the right 'way'.

[John81]

Jesus said it will be more tolerable for Sodom so I must believe that's what He meant. That doesn't mean Sodom won't get their just judgement, it simply means their judged punishment will be somewhat "lighter" than those Christ was speaking of.

 

Each person in hell, whether Hitler (everyones favorite example) or the really nice guy who lived a decent life and even attended church his whole life but died unsaved will receive their just punishment in hell but from what I read in Scripture it seems there will be degrees of punishment.

 

I don't recall the exact verses now, but it speaks of different people being given different amounts of "stripes" due to their different levels of transgression.

[Genevanpreacher]

Luke 12:47,48. You might want to reread this, especially the end of verse 48.

 

Reminds me of preachers preaching 'rewards' levels also.

I think people who go to hell all get the same punishment, no matter how bad, as well the saved

all get the same heaven, like the Lord taught in the teaching about the servants who all got a 

penny, no matter whether they worked a long time or a few minutes, up to the 11th hour.

The first will be last and the last shall be first.

All equal.

IMO.

[John81]

Scripture does say what we've done since salvation will be tried in the fire with some receiving rewards for that which survives the fire and some suffering loss because the fire burned theirs up.

 

Whatever the case may be regarding rewards in heaven or punishment in hell; I'm simply thankful the Lord saved me and I will abide with Christ forever.