Separating from Ray Boltz

[Alimantado]

What is CCM? Would a modern worship song like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms' be classed as CCM?

[Anon]

"Leaning on the Everlasting Arms" is a hymn....CCM would be contemporary music that sounds like soft rock, rock, rap, etc but with "Christian" words.

[PreacherBen]

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

According to the verse above, we should separate from MOST of the CCM, country gospel, bluegrass gospel, pop oriented Christian music world...period. I know there are some exceptions in most conservative genres, but the bulk of them look and sound like the wicked ol' world.

I preached at a youth meeting once and they let all the youngins' get up and sing there favorite music (most of it canned, that's taped for those who don't know that phrase,) except one little chubby fella from Bowie, TX, he got up and sang, 'Leaning on the Everlasting Arms, and my wife and I could have shouted. It was good.

:2cents

[no name joe]

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses' date=' know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.[/color']

According to the verse above, we should separate from MOST of the CCM, country gospel, bluegrass gospel, pop oriented Christian music world...period. I know there are some exceptions in most conservative genres, but the bulk of them look and sound like the wicked ol' world.

I preached at a youth meeting once and they let all the youngins' get up and sing there favorite music (most of it canned, that's taped for those who don't know that phrase,) except one little chubby fella from Bowie, TX, he got up and sang, 'Leaning on the Everlasting Arms, and my wife and I could have shouted. It was good.

:2cents

I don't understand what is wrong with CCM. Music comes from the heart. Music is deeply engrained in culture. Worship is deeply engrained in culture, and grows out of culture. The means of worship is not important. What is important is that it comes from the heart.

Worship among Christians in an African tribe will look very different than worship in a church in the US. African tribe worship would likely involve lots of drumming, beats, chants, etc. lifting up the name of Christ. There are many good hymns. They were written in a specific time period and grew out of that particular culture. They can have meaning today too, but had those same writers lived today, their music would have sounded much different.

Writers today will be much more likely to incorporate guitars, and high energy music into their writing. If someone writes it from their heart, chances are the music will lead others to worship also. What is important is that a person, in writing music, glorifies God and expresses his or her experience with God through words and music.

The worship music Mozart or Bach wrote sounds much different that the worship music that John Wesley or Fanny Crosby wrote. What they wrote sound much different than what groups like Caedman's Call or David Crowder write today. What is awesome is that all of these people serve the same God. They seek to worship God through thier usic and lead others to do the same.

Just like their are very good, deep meaningful hymns and modern worship songs, so there are also shallow, trite, meaningless hymns and modern worship songs.

We must seek to worship God through the form of music that most expresses our heart and moves us into a worshipful place. For some that will be hymns. For others, modern music. For others, Classical muisc. For others, African tribal music. What we must be unified in is the worship of Christ. We must appreciate one another, and can appreciate other types of music even though it may not be our preference.

I'm amazed that some adhear to the doctrine that hymns are good and all CCM is bad. Some hymns are good, some are not. Some CCM is good, some is not. Music is a means of expressing ourselves. People express themselves differently. And that is part of the beauty of God's creation....we are different.

[HappyChristian]

I don't understand what is wrong with CCM. Music comes from the heart. Music is deeply engrained in culture. Worship is deeply engrained in culture, and grows out of culture. The means of worship is not important. What is important is that it comes from the heart.

You are right, kind - music does come from the heart. But we all have to remember that, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" The human heart is fundamentally wicked, so we cannot use that as our guide.

God has set forth principles in His Word that we are to follow. And sometimes our hearts disagree with that, and we begin to apply human reasoning.

The means of worship is very important. People involved in the "laughing revival" believe they are worshipping from the heart, but if one watches one of those services, one can see that they are being deceived. That ole heart, again.

So it is with music. We can sigh and say, "Oh, this makes me feel good, so close to Jesus..." because our hearts are happy. But that doesn't make it right.

God sets the pattern for separation very clearly in His Word. Much of CCM is a hybrid of Christianity and the world. Am I saying that it's all bad? No. But when a song sounds like (regardless of the lyrics) it could be comfy on the pop charts - I'm not going to allow it to gain ascendency in my music listening.

Music doesn't always grow out of a culture. Sometimes music is transplanted and then begins to define a new culture. And it's not always good, just because it's new.

[no name joe]

You are right, kind - music does come from the heart. But we all have to remember that, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" The human heart is fundamentally wicked, so we cannot use that as our guide.

God has set forth principles in His Word that we are to follow. And sometimes our hearts disagree with that, and we begin to apply human reasoning.

The means of worship is very important. People involved in the "laughing revival" believe they are worshipping from the heart, but if one watches one of those services, one can see that they are being deceived. That ole heart, again.

So it is with music. We can sigh and say, "Oh, this makes me feel good, so close to Jesus..." because our hearts are happy. But that doesn't make it right.

God sets the pattern for separation very clearly in His Word. Much of CCM is a hybrid of Christianity and the world. Am I saying that it's all bad? No. But when a song sounds like (regardless of the lyrics) it could be comfy on the pop charts - I'm not going to allow it to gain ascendency in my music listening.

Music doesn't always grow out of a culture. Sometimes music is transplanted and then begins to define a new culture. And it's not always good, just because it's new.

But I don't see in the Bible where is says that you can only sing hymns. After all hyms of their day were often written in the style of music of the day.

I agree that some CCM artists are in it to make money, but most are not. Most are in it because they love music and love God. They want to use the God given talents to worship him and to lead others to worship him.

Steven Curtis Chapman is a good example. Though I'm not a big fan of his music, he undoubtedly uses the talents God gave to him to worship. His focus is on Christ and on leading others to Christ. Caedman's Call (though they are no long a group) is another good example. David Crowder is another. I could go on and on and list people who write music from their heart and give back to God. Their lyrics are incredibly scriptural.

I understand having something against bands that merely imitate a style of music and add Christian lyrics to sell records to young Christians. HOwever, many, many bands have music that come from their heart, lyrics that are Scriptural, and have a true heart for worship.

I myself play bass guitar for our worship band in church. I can tell you that our task is not to make music that sounds good. It is to draw others into a state of worship and point them to Jesus Christ. Music has an incredible way of moving people and speaking to people. God designed it that way, and it needs to be used to move people to worship him.

[HappyChristian]

I never (and I don't believe anyone else did, either) said that we can only sing hymns. Styles of music do vary, and there are some that are lovely.

And, as I said, lyrics aren't the only thing that matters. If the song sounds like a pop song, it's worldly - even though I know there are people who disagree, that's the way it is. If an unsaved person can enjoy a CCM song just as much as they can a pop song - something's wrong with it.

And I'm sorry, but all three examples that you listed are exactly what I was talking about. If I didn't know they were "Christians," I'd think they were rock stars/groups. There is nothing distinct from worldly music about their music. Lyrics might be, but only with Chapman can you tell what he's saying. But he still sings just like a pop star. And their music videos look just like a rock concert. Go on youtube, turn down the volume and watch. No difference. No separation. Sorry, but the heart has deceived people into believing that is worship...when it's really feeding the flesh instead. God wants His people to be different from the world. Not interchangeable with it. Whether it's good lyrics with bad music or bad lyrics with good music.

[no name joe]

I never (and I don't believe anyone else did, either) said that we can only sing hymns. Styles of music do vary, and there are some that are lovely.

And, as I said, lyrics aren't the only thing that matters. If the song sounds like a pop song, it's worldly - even though I know there are people who disagree, that's the way it is. If an unsaved person can enjoy a CCM song just as much as they can a pop song - something's wrong with it.

And I'm sorry, but all three examples that you listed are exactly what I was talking about. If I didn't know they were "Christians," I'd think they were rock stars/groups. There is nothing distinct from worldly music about their music. Lyrics might be, but only with Chapman can you tell what he's saying. But he still sings just like a pop star. And their music videos look just like a rock concert. Go on youtube, turn down the volume and watch. No difference. No separation. Sorry, but the heart has deceived people into believing that is worship...when it's really feeding the flesh instead. God wants His people to be different from the world. Not interchangeable with it. Whether it's good lyrics with bad music or bad lyrics with good music.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. i don't have to go to youtube to find their music. I own CD's from each band, and have seen each band play live. I can tell you that each was an incredibly worshipful experience. I can appreciate how it does not lead some into worship. But to say the worship of some people through this music is false is flat out wrong.

When God says he wants us to be different, he is talking about our actions. We are to love, be unselfish, help the poor, feed the hungry, love those who are hard to love.....in other words, act like Jesus. In the Psalms, there is record of worship with drums, tambarines, joyful shouting, horns, lyres, harps, etc. Instruments are just that.....a way to use to express our love to God. Style is not important. What is important is that worship comes form our heart and is directed to God.

I can appreciate the fact that you do not like CCM or a particular style of music. That is fine. I don't like it much either, as I prefer jazz and bluegrass. However, to say that people singing to God through a particular style of music is not worship is a seriously misguided opinion.

[HappyChristian]

kind - no, it's not misguided. Why would God lead someone to worship Him in a way that is similar to the gyrations of a rock band? What you are calling worship being done at one of these concerts is completely emotional. Not spiritual. Sorry - I'm afraid you are the misguided one - and I say that with love, really.

I have no problem with any of the instruments you listed. We have different kinds of drums in our church orchestra (no bongos, though :Green ). We have violins, violas, etc. We have picollos, flutes, clarinets, bassoons, saxiphones, trumpets, trombones, french horns, tubas. We have cymbals and even a tambourine and a bell (used for Life's Railway to Heaven...neat song). And we have more.

Instruments aren't the problem.

When God calls us to be different, it is complete. We are to allow Him to work inside us a work that is so complete that no-one has any questions as to our loyalty when they see us or hear our music. The Holy Spirit changes people - He doesn't just save us and let us remain as we were. What you listed aren't actions - they are attitudes. And yes, we are to be very different in them. But our actions, as you said, are to be different, too. And the performance of music is one of those. People singing to God through a style of music that can be confused with the world is not worship. It is confusion, and God is not the author of it.

[no name joe]

kind - no, it's not misguided. Why would God lead someone to worship Him in a way that is similar to the gyrations of a rock band? What you are calling worship being done at one of these concerts is completely emotional. Not spiritual. Sorry - I'm afraid you are the misguided one - and I say that with love, really.

I have no problem with any of the instruments you listed. We have different kinds of drums in our church orchestra (no bongos, though :Green ). We have violins, violas, etc. We have picollos, flutes, clarinets, bassoons, saxiphones, trumpets, trombones, french horns, tubas. We have cymbals and even a tambourine and a bell (used for Life's Railway to Heaven...neat song). And we have more.

Instruments aren't the problem.

When God calls us to be different, it is complete. We are to allow Him to work inside us a work that is so complete that no-one has any questions as to our loyalty when they see us or hear our music. The Holy Spirit changes people - He doesn't just save us and let us remain as we were. What you listed aren't actions - they are attitudes. And yes, we are to be very different in them. But our actions, as you said, are to be different, too. And the performance of music is one of those. People singing to God through a style of music that can be confused with the world is not worship. It is confusion, and God is not the author of it.

Well, I agree to disagree then.

A formal orchestra is a great thing. It leads many people into great worship. But so is a band made up of a bass guitar, accoustic guitar, electric guitar, and drums.

Emotion and worship are intertwined. You can feel emotion without worship, but is sure is hard to worship without emotion. Worship is the meeting of mind and emotion to lift up God. Music involves both mind and emotion, and if directed to God in a heartfelt way, it is worship. Nothing is wrong with moving during worship. Nothing is wrong with tapping one's feet, lifting one's hands, moving to the beat of the music as long as your mind and emotion is directed to the praise of God. I'm a very reserved worshiper and don't move much, but others are more demonstrative, and that is fine and good.

King David danced in the streets in praise of God. We are to dance to the praise of God. We are to use our talents to the praise of God. If one is a talented guitar player and can play great contemporary music, then he or she should do so to the Lord. If one is a a talented violin player in an orchestra, then he or she should play to the Lord.

I go to secular concerts also. The concerts, though much fun, are not worship. People are there merely to have a good time and enjoy a show. Any band who desires to lead in worship knows that people are coming to worship, and must take their job seriously to draw others to a place where they can rest and meditate in the presence of God. God speaks to us through our minds and emotions. Music can lead the minds and emotions of people to lift up the name of God. I fail to see how that is wrong, whether a band plays hymns, old time gospel, chamber music, bluegrass, CCM, or anything else to the glory of God.

[Guest Guest]

What is CCM? Would a modern worship song like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms' be classed as CCM?

Alimantado...Again...you are so funny. :lol In a good way, of course. :thumb

[Guest Guest]

The means of worship is very important. People involved in the "laughing revival" believe they are worshipping from the heart' date=' but if one watches one of those services, one can see that they are being deceived. That ole heart, again.[/quote']


What is a "laughing revival?" Does it mean what is says? :duh

[Alimantado]

Alimantado...Again...you are so funny. :lol In a good way, of course. :thumb

Thanks Candlelight, but this time I wasn't joking! I've never heard the term CCM, so I wanted to know if it meant 'modern modern', as in songs being written now, or 'modern' as in American gospel music, like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms'. That's one of my favourite songs ever, btw.

[HappyChristian]

Al - it actually stands for Contemporary Christian Music. It is new stuff, but the idea behind the wording is that it brings Christian music up to date - you know, makes it contemporary. Most of the songs are very similar, as are the groups (at least to look at, and to listen to - to me!). It's not talking about just songs that are new. Does that help or muddy the waters?

candle - the laughing revival is just what it sounds like. The congregation laughs. It sounds kinda silly, but it really isn't.

[Anon]

Eww that's yucky, I can't even watch the whole thing. Its either a MAJOR set up, with good actors, or yeah the place is so full of demons its not even funny....