Regeneration And Believing.

[Genevanpreacher]

Saving faith brings regeneration, regeneration does not bring saving faith. They are NOT the same thing-one is the result of the other. First, faith, then regeneration.

 

Yes, but in the same 'time frame', faith produces conversion almost at the same instant.

No disrespect to the scriptures at all. Faith does produce conversion. But conversion does produce faith for the knowledge that follows.

Not 'saving' faith, but believing faith. (of and about the accuracy of the scriptures, and 'things that we believe', etc.)

[DaveW]

But the actual question goes to the heart of the Calvinisic model that a man must be regenerated before he can respond.

This is what I was seeking verses for and which is a vital linchpin to the whole formula but which has, as far as I can see and as far as has been presented here, no biblical support.

[Ukulelemike]

Rom 10"14-17:

 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  But they have not all OBeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

If faith, in context, saving faith, comes by hearing the word of God, and the question is posed, how can they call on who they haven't believed, and how can the believe in whom they haven't heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, etc..., then HOW can there possibly be regeneration, which is salvation, without calling, without believing, without hearing, without preaching? This scriptuire alone blows any possibility of regeneration preceding saving faith, completley out of the water. There is a clear process, a flow, if you will:

 

A preacher is sent

he preaches Christ to the lost

They hear

they believe (faith)

they call upon the name of the Lord, and THEN are saved/regenerated.

 

 

The Bible doesn't say, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord HAS been saved." No, "SHALL"..At that moment, be saved.

[Genevanpreacher]

Rom 10"14-17:

 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  But they have not all OBeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

If faith, in context, saving faith, comes by hearing the word of God, and the question is posed, how can they call on who they haven't believed, and how can the believe in whom they haven't heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, etc..., then HOW can there possibly be regeneration, which is salvation, without calling, without believing, without hearing, without preaching? This scriptuire alone blows any possibility of regeneration preceding saving faith, completley out of the water. There is a clear process, a flow, if you will:

 

A preacher is sent

he preaches Christ to the lost

They hear

they believe (faith)

they call upon the name of the Lord, and THEN are saved/regenerated.

 

 

The Bible doesn't say, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord HAS been saved." No, "SHALL"..At that moment, be saved.

 

Then it does go to say, if you believe, and believing with all your heart is regeneration,

then a person is saved before 'calling upon the name of the Lord', hence a person being

regenerate at the moment of believing pre-dates the act of calling on God.

 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? (KJV)

 

They have to hear before they believe, and they have to believe before they call upon his name.

Hence they are saved before praying to God.

 

I find it interesting that a lot of preachers think one has to 'call upon the name of the Lord' to get saved,

yet they can only quote a coupla verses to support that claim.

Usually the penitent tax collector saying 'God be merciful to me a sinner', and this verse in Romans 10.

No where else is it 'required' to pray to get saved.

Prayer is a relationship with your new 'owner', the Lord, and is not a salvation purchaser.

 

Yes, I believe the words mean that the one who is already saved 'at that moment' will call upon

the name of the Lord. Not to be saved, but as an effect of the fact that they are saved,

they recognize God as Lord in a relationship of conversation.

 

Reading the upper part of the chapter helps a bunch in explaining this.

Some people have two ways of being saved by thinking the way of 'calling

upon the name of the Lord' to get saved, compared to verses 8,9, and 10

which is where a person really gets saved. 

 

I know I might get in trouble with this one but that's what my conviction, 

on what the scriptures teach on conversion, is.

[Ukulelemike]

The Bible doesn't say, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord HAS been saved." No, "SHALL"..At that moment, be saved.

Then it does go to say, if you believe, and believing with all your heart is regeneration,

then a person is saved before 'calling upon the name of the Lord', hence a person being

regenerate at the moment of believing pre-dates the act of calling on God.

 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? (KJV)

 

They have to hear before they believe, and they have to believe before they call upon his name.

Hence they are saved before praying to God.  Allow me to repeat the last line of my post, please. " The Bible doesn't say "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord HAS been saved." No, "SHALL"...at that moment, be saved."  The call preceeds the regeneration.

 

In other words, the way I understand it, the call is like, if I was drowning and someone came about in a boat and threw me a life preserver, I could truly believe with all my heart that the preserver was to save me and could fully save me-but it wouldn't do me any good unless I took it in my hands. So, I must believe AND call for salvation before I am regenerated.

 

I find it interesting that a lot of preachers think one has to 'call upon the name of the Lord' to get saved,

yet they can only quote a coupla verses to support that claim.

Usually the penitent tax collector saying 'God be merciful to me a sinner', and this verse in Romans 10.

No where else is it 'required' to pray to get saved.

Prayer is a relationship with your new 'owner', the Lord, and is not a salvation purchaser.

 

Yes, I believe the words mean that the one who is already saved 'at that moment' will call upon

the name of the Lord. Not to be saved, but as an effect of the fact that they are saved,

they recognize God as Lord in a relationship of conversation.

 

Reading the upper part of the chapter helps a bunch in explaining this.

Some people have two ways of being saved by thinking the way of 'calling

upon the name of the Lord' to get saved, compared to verses 8,9, and 10

which is where a person really gets saved. 

 

I know I might get in trouble with this one but that's what my conviction, 

on what the scriptures teach on conversion, is.

[DaveW]

Well, I've gotta say "a coupla verses" is better than the NONE that have been shown here for your argument.

[Genevanpreacher]

Well, I've gotta say "a coupla verses" is better than the NONE that have been shown here for your argument.

 

Hello? Anytime there were conversions in the scriptures, which is everytime there were conversions in the scriptures, they never prayed to get saved!

Come on DaveW, that was just a silly comment.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Seems I read of one man beating on his chest and saying "Lord, be merciful unto me a sinner." 

If that was not a praayer of Salvation, I don't know what is.

[Genevanpreacher]

Seems I read of one man beating on his chest and saying "Lord, be merciful unto me a sinner." 

If that was not a praayer of Salvation, I don't know what is.

 

That was not praying to get saved was it? Where was the preaching? What did the man hear?

Jesus hadn't even paid for sin yet . . .

 

What is this an example for?

 

How come there are no others getting saved this way in the New Testament days?

 

Is this believing or regeneration?

 

What about 'if thou believest with all thine heart thou mayest'?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This was not an answer to "What must I do to be saved?", it was a response to, "See, here is water.  What doth hinder me from being baptized.?

The eunuch had just heard the Word.  He heard the call for Salvation and responded, believing in his heart on Christ.

As to the parable of the sinner crying for mercy, he had gone to the Temple to pray.  Does the Bible say only praying was done in the Temple?  I am quite sure there was the reading of the Word as well.  How shall they call on Him of whom they have not heard? is a question that comes to mind.  The sinner has to hear the Word or he can never call on God.

[DaveW]

Hello? Anytime there were conversions in the scriptures, which is everytime there were conversions in the scriptures, they never prayed to get saved!
Come on DaveW, that was just a silly comment.

I was pointing out that YOU SAID there were only "a couple verses" and somehow felt that you giving NO VERSE outweighed that.
Now THAT IS a silly comment.......

[Genevanpreacher]

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This was not an answer to "What must I do to be saved?", it was a response to, "See, here is water.  What doth hinder me from being baptized.? No, this was an answer with 'confession of his mouth' like in Romans 10:8-10.

The eunuch had just heard the Word.  He heard the call for Salvation and responded, believing in his heart on Christ.

As to the parable of the sinner crying for mercy, he had gone to the Temple to pray.  Does the Bible say only praying was done in the Temple?  I am quite sure there was the reading of the Word as well.  How shall they call on Him of whom they have not heard? is a question that comes to mind.  The sinner has to hear the Word or he can never call on God. He was going to the temple to worship, because he was a believer already.

[Genevanpreacher]

This was not an answer to "What must I do to be saved?"
.

 

Yet this is.

 

"Then he called for a light and leaped in and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

and brought them out, and said Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine household."

 

And there is no record that he 'called on Jesus' to save him.

 

Yes, there was preaching to him and the family afterwards, I know.

 

Yet, if 'calling upon the name of the Lord' was the way to attain the gift of eternal life, why was it not discussed

in any of the conversion experiences in the New Testament?

[Genevanpreacher]

I was pointing out that YOU SAID there were only "a couple verses" and somehow felt that you giving NO VERSE outweighed that.
Now THAT IS a silly comment.......

 

That is a fair statement. And silly of me, too.

 

Yet, as I assume you have read the New Testament,

it should come to your memory that there were no

'calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation' experiences.

Do you know of any?

[DaveW]

That is a fair statement. And silly of me, too.

Yet, as I assume you have read the New Testament,
it should come to your memory that there were no
'calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation' experiences.
Do you know of any?

I never said there was and this is just anther attempt to sidestep the issue of the thread which is that this Calvinist man from a Reformed church said that a man must be regenerated before he can believe. And there are folk here who have confirmed that line of thought BUT ALL WITHOUT BIBLICAL SUPPORT.
This line of thought changes the basis of salvation, which you have just shown is believing on Jesus Christ, to God making one to be regenerated.

Start your own thread.......