Paradise And Abraham's Bosom

[Ukulelemike]

Abraham's Bosom was, actually, ABRAHAM'S BOSOM. in other words, the beggar Lazarus was comforted in the literal bosom, or embrace, of Abraham. Abraham happened to be in Paradise, which was, as has been said before, a separate place from Heaven, as none could yet ascend to Heaven until mankind was redeemed. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, which would be Paradise, because none can go to heaven except they know Christ. Not even Abraham.

 Now, as for Elijah and Enoch, they seem to be different, perhaps a picture of the believers' experience? Both assuemed bodily into Heaven? For what purpose, the Bible doesn't say, and while we can speculate all we like, we'll never know this side of glory, for the hidden things belong to the Lord.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says Lazarus was in Paradise with the rich man crying out for a drop of water.  I see he was in Abram's Bosom, separate from Hell, separate from Paradise .... nothing more, nothing less.

[Guest]

 

That might be possible, but 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain and we are yet in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies in heaven with his own blood and sprinkle it on the mercy seat for our sins to be forgiven. 

 

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having OBtained eternal redemption for us.

 

Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, we were not redeemed. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. 

 

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

So, it is not enough that Jesus died for us, he also HAD to rise from the dead for us to be saved. 

 

Cross out that "immediately" in my prior post. The rest of it and what you said prior to that post I was in agreement with. Yes, Jesus did have to rise from the dead and ascend into heaven for the Gospel to be complete but, when he "led captivity captive" those that believed what he preached to them were moved from Abraham's bosom into heaven with my Savior, Jesus Christ...and so shall they ever be.

[Ukulelemike]

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says Lazarus was in Paradise with the rich man crying out for a drop of water.  I see he was in Abram's Bosom, separate from Hell, separate from Paradise .... nothing more, nothing less.

True, the Bible doesn't call it paradise. Agreed. But was this Abraham's Bosom, or Abraham's bosom, not the name of the location, but of the place of comfort, literally, the bosom, or embrace of Abraham. After all, we see it was Abraham speaking on behalf of Lazarus to the rich man. As well, the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, and Abraham could see and speak with the rich man, meaning Lazarus could see and hear him, I would assume, a safe assumption.

 

We DO know wherever it was,it was a place of comfort, a place where Abraham was, a place where the angels took him.

 

As well, as was mentioned above, the thief on the cros was told by Jesus that he would be with him in paradise that very day, yet Jesus still had to preach to the  lost and fulfill His three days in the grave ebfore he would axscend and complete the sacrifice. So it is safe to again assume that the Paradise jesus spoke of wasn't Heaven, but a temporary place, where the thief met with Jesus, Jesus preached and led them out.

 

Yes, there is assumptions in all this-its not clearly spelled out in any one verse, but that's how we read and understand the Bible-by taking it as a whole and putting things together when they fit properly and this all fits quite well.

 

But as always, there's always room for discussion and I don't claim perfect understanding, as I think few here would.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The prophet Isaiah foretold of Christ ministering to those in prison... Setting captives free. I believe the prison is where Abraham and Lazarus were... again, separate from hell and separate from Paradise. If Lazarus was in paradise with Abraham, why would he need to be set at liberty?

[Winman]

Cross out that "immediately" in my prior post. The rest of it and what you said prior to that post I was in agreement with. Yes, Jesus did have to rise from the dead and ascend into heaven for the Gospel to be complete but, when he "led captivity captive" those that believed what he preached to them were moved from Abraham's bosom into heaven with my Savior, Jesus Christ...and so shall they ever be.

Yes, I believe that after Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, and after he received the promise of the Spirit, that he descended again into the heart of the earth and gave those believers the Holy Spirit, and then led them to heaven. That is what is meant by "he gave gifts to men" in Ephesians 4:8;

 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

Until Jesus ascended to heaven after he was raised from the dead, believers were shown to be in the heart of the earth such as the prophet Samuel when he died. 

 

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

 

Samuel was not in heaven when he died, he was down in the heart of the earth. 

 

Enoch and Elija? That is a different story for which I have no definite answer. 

[Guest]

 

 I believe that after Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, and after he received the promise of the Spirit, that he descended again into the heart of the earth and gave those believers the Holy Spirit

Hmmm...never heard of this before? "after he received the promise of the Spirit" You're not talking about Jesus Christ, you mean Abraham, right? 

 

"that he descended again into the heart of the earth" I remotely recall someone once saying something similar to this. I think they were talking about the " I am not yet ascended to my Father:" John 20:17 I would be interested to hear it all again, it's been many years ago.

[Winman]

Hmmm...never heard of this before? "after he received the promise of the Spirit" You're not talking about Jesus Christ, you mean Abraham, right? 

 

"that he descended again into the heart of the earth" I remotely recall someone once saying something similar to this. I think they were talking about the " I am not yet ascended to my Father:" John 20:17 I would be interested to hear it all again, it's been many years ago.

 

You have not heard that Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit? Read Acts chapter 2;

 

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Peter is speaking of Jesus here. 

 

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

Jesus also said he had to go away before the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) would come to believers.

 

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

I do not believe Jesus could send the Holy Spirit to believers until their sins had been atoned for. They had to be washed clean in his blood, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean vessel. 

 

All I know is that Jesus said he would send the Spirit "from the Father" and Peter said that Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost "of the Father" and shed it forth on the day of Pentacost. 

[Miss Daisy]

I'll have to ask my pastor about this topic. All news to me.

[Guest]

Hmmm...never heard of this before? "after he received the promise of the Spirit" You're not talking about Jesus Christ, you mean Abraham, right? 

 

"that he descended again into the heart of the earth" I remotely recall someone once saying something similar to this. I think they were talking about the " I am not yet ascended to my Father:" John 20:17 I would be interested to hear it all again, it's been many years ago.

 

You have not heard that Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit? Read Acts chapter 2;

 

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Peter is speaking of Jesus here. 

 

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

Jesus also said he had to go away before the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) would come to believers.

 

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

I do not believe Jesus could send the Holy Spirit to believers until their sins had been atoned for. They had to be washed clean in his blood, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean vessel. 

 

All I know is that Jesus said he would send the Spirit "from the Father" and Peter said that Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost "of the Father" and shed it forth on the day of Pentacost. 

I believe Jesus received the "promise." That promise was the Holy Spirit would be given to men, the Father would "give you (them, the disciples) another comforter." John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" I can't agree with you that the Bible spoke of being given the Holy Spirit, I think if we study this out we'll find the Father released the Holy Spirit when Christ ascended to the Father. 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Of course we know the "Word" here referenced is Jesus Christ. 

 

John 7

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

"the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive"

 

To answer your question NO I've never heard that Jesus Christ had to receive the Holy Spirit. I can't agree with that premise either.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't fellowship with you.

[Winman]

I believe Jesus received the "promise." That promise was the Holy Spirit would be given to men, the Father would "give you (them, the disciples) another comforter." John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" I can't agree with you that the Bible spoke of being given the Holy Spirit, I think if we study this out we'll find the Father released the Holy Spirit when Christ ascended to the Father. 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Of course we know the "Word" here referenced is Jesus Christ. 

 

John 7

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

"the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive"

 

To answer your question NO I've never heard that Jesus Christ had to receive the Holy Spirit. I can't agree with that premise either.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't fellowship with you.

Well, I tend to believe what the scriptures say. Acts 2:33 seems to say Jesus received the Spirit. 

 

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

I am not an expert on grammar, but I believe the phrase "and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost" points to the word "he" meaning Jesus. 

 

Did Jesus have the "indwelling" Spirit before he rose from the dead? I am not sure. The scriptures say the Spirit was "upon" him. 

 

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

If Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, then why did the Holy Spirit need to light upon him? Why do the scriptures say God "annointed" Jesus with the Holy Spirit?

 

There might be scripture that says Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, but I am not aware of it. There is however, much scripture that says the Spirit would rest "upon him".

 

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

 

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

 

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

As you see, the scriptures repeatedly say the Spirit would be "upon" Jesus, not "in him". So perhaps Acts 2:33 is literal, and Jesus received the indwelling Holy Spirit when he rose from the dead and was glorified. 

 

If you have scripture that shows Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, I will be glad to look at it. 

[Ukulelemike]

Well as I understand scripture, jesus WAS, and indeed, IS God, so, the Spirit was always part of Him, the same as the Spirit is part of the Father, (if that would be the proper way to say it, "part of".) If Jesus is God, and the father is God and the Spirit is God, then how can we say that Jesus didn't 'have' the Spirit?
 

I think this is where our inability to fully grasp the intricacies of the relationship of God to Himself, so to speak. Father, Son and Spirit are all God, all One God, yet three Persons, three, what, workings, of that same God? Jesus had a work to do, and the Spirit had a work to do, both of which meshed perfectly, complimenting each work, but still separate.  

 

I am getting worse at trying to put into words what I am arguing can't be put into words. Maybe someone else can say it better. But the bottom line is, Father Son and Spirit are all one-to suggest Jesus didn't 'have' the Spirit is like saying Jesus didn't have Jesus. They are One.

[Guest]

 

Well, I tend to believe what the scriptures say. Acts 2:33 seems to say Jesus received the Spirit. 

 

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

I am not an expert on grammar, but I believe the phrase "and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost" points to the word "he" meaning Jesus. 

Me either but, I understand the promise would be to men that believed on Jesus not to God in the flesh, very God, Jesus Christ. 

Did Jesus have the "indwelling" Spirit before he rose from the dead? I am not sure. The scriptures say the Spirit was "upon" him. 

 

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

If Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, then why did the Holy Spirit need to light upon him? Why do the scriptures say God "annointed" Jesus with the Holy Spirit?

 

There might be scripture that says Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, but I am not aware of it. There is however, much scripture that says the Spirit would rest "upon him".

 

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

 

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

 

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

As you see, the scriptures repeatedly say the Spirit would be "upon" Jesus, not "in him". So perhaps Acts 2:33 is literal, and Jesus received the indwelling Holy Spirit when he rose from the dead and was glorified. 

 

If you have scripture that shows Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, I will be glad to look at it. 

 

It's just another one of those things which we have to come to understand by faith. All of the signs of the Holy Spirit you mention above are not any requirement of God the Son. They are signs for man and primarily for the Jews. The Father gave the Jews what they needed, signs (no matter they were blind to it) of the Father's approval of His Son, Jesus Christ. You really don't believe the work of Jesus Christ, very God, needed anything beyond himself to perform the work he came to do, do you? In all my 60 years I've never heard anyone attempt to forward a doctrine where Jesus Christ needed anything. This is indeed a strange doctrine. Is it one you've developed on your own or is there a congregation teaching this somewhere?

[Winman]

It's just another one of those things which we have to come to understand by faith. All of the signs of the Holy Spirit you mention above are not any requirement of God the Son. They are signs for man and primarily for the Jews. The Father gave the Jews what they needed, signs (no matter they were blind to it) of the Father's approval of His Son, Jesus Christ. You really don't believe the work of Jesus Christ, very God, needed anything beyond himself to perform the work he came to do, do you? In all my 60 years I've never heard anyone attempt to forward a doctrine where Jesus Christ needed anything. This is indeed a strange doctrine. Is it one you've developed on your own or is there a congregation teaching this somewhere?

I just believe what scripture says. Acts 2:33 says Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost. I didn't say that, Peter under the influence of the Holy Spirit said that. 

 

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Open your Bible and read this verse for yourself. Tell me what it says. 

 

Just because you have never heard of this before does not make it wrong. Show where the scriptures say Jesus had the indwelling Spirit before he rose from the dead, I don't believe you can show it. But there are MANY scriptures that say the Spirit was "upon" him. 

 

Mat 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

16 And charged them that they should not make him known:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

 

There is one verse that says Jesus was "full of the Holy Ghost"

 

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

 

Does this verse say Jesus had the indwelling Spirit before he rose from the dead and was glorified? Perhaps, perhaps not. 

[Winman]

Well as I understand scripture, jesus WAS, and indeed, IS God, so, the Spirit was always part of Him, the same as the Spirit is part of the Father, (if that would be the proper way to say it, "part of".) If Jesus is God, and the father is God and the Spirit is God, then how can we say that Jesus didn't 'have' the Spirit?
 

I think this is where our inability to fully grasp the intricacies of the relationship of God to Himself, so to speak. Father, Son and Spirit are all God, all One God, yet three Persons, three, what, workings, of that same God? Jesus had a work to do, and the Spirit had a work to do, both of which meshed perfectly, complimenting each work, but still separate.  

 

I am getting worse at trying to put into words what I am arguing can't be put into words. Maybe someone else can say it better. But the bottom line is, Father Son and Spirit are all one-to suggest Jesus didn't 'have' the Spirit is like saying Jesus didn't have Jesus. They are One.

I agree 100% that Jesus WAS and IS God. Nevertheless, Acts 2:33 says Jesus received the promise of the Spirit from his Father. 

 

I don't understand it, I just believe it.