Mark And Avoid Or Spit Out The Bones?

[AVBibleBeliever]

Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

can you find a Biblical pattern for courtship and marriage?

[John81]

They are in the Epistles.

[heartstrings]

Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

[swathdiver]

John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

 

When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

[heartstrings]

All the camels on earth wouldn't be a fraction of the worth of my daughter. Only a godly young man could even come close to having enough 'camels' to suit me.

 

Jesus wants us to marry for life. My one and only Wife and I have been married 29 years and we're going for 29 more, at least. But if a spouse is a fornicator, Jesus said "except it be for fornication". Stay away from fornication and we'll all be just fine.

[swathdiver]

All the camels on earth wouldn't be a fraction of the worth of my daughter. Only a godly young man could even come close to having enough 'camels' to suit me.

 

All that camel stuff is a joke Wayne!  

[heartstrings]

Yeah, I know. But I'm being serious. However, I am looking for a llama or a couple of alpacas if you have any.

[Ukulelemike]

When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

So basically you just disregard the words of Jesus when He said, "Except it be for fornication". When Jesus said that, He wasn't saying actually saying this was an acceptable reason for divorce, He was actually saying you CAN'T get divorced for it. That's silly and putting man's spin on it.

 

Now understand, I am not saying that He meant you MUST get divorced for it-certainly reconciliation and repentance would be the preferred route, but Jesus clearly DID say that for fornication, a man could divorce his wife. AND Paul added, through direction of the Spirit, that a believer who is abandoned by an unbeliving spouse was not under bondage to that person, and thus was free to let them go and remarry.

[AVBibleBeliever]

can you find a Biblical pattern for courtship and marriage?

do you mind quoting them?

[AVBibleBeliever]

When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

Ok so who do you follow Moses, Jesus or Paul?

 

How do you make the distinction?

 

And why do you  follow the one you chose too over the others?

[swathdiver]

So basically you just disregard the words of Jesus when He said, "Except it be for fornication". When Jesus said that, He wasn't saying actually saying this was an acceptable reason for divorce, He was actually saying you CAN'T get divorced for it. That's silly and putting man's spin on it.

 

Now understand, I am not saying that He meant you MUST get divorced for it-certainly reconciliation and repentance would be the preferred route, but Jesus clearly DID say that for fornication, a man could divorce his wife. AND Paul added, through direction of the Spirit, that a believer who is abandoned by an unbeliving spouse was not under bondage to that person, and thus was free to let them go and remarry.

 

Ohh goodness.  Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers.  He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce.  God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.   

 

Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.  

 

Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:

 

"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

 

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

 

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

 

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."

 

If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce.  In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27?  Remain unmarried or be reconciled.  God is not the author of confusion folks.

 

 

Ok so who do you follow Moses, Jesus or Paul?

 

How do you make the distinction?

 

And why do you  follow the one you chose too over the others?

 

Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

 

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.

[Ukulelemike]

 

Ohh goodness.  Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers.  He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce.  God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.   

 

Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.  

 

Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:

 

"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

 

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

 

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

 

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."

 

If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce.  In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27?  Remain unmarried or be reconciled.  God is not the author of confusion folks.

 

 

 

Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

 

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.

 

Then what does Paul mean when he says,15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:"?

 

Under bondage to what? It means we are not under bondage to that unbelieving spouse that has left-its abandonment. If my unbelieving wife left me, walked out, wanted a divorce, Paul is saying that I am not under bondage to that person-thus, if we dvorce and I remarry, I am free to do so. Not under bondage means not bound to them.

 

Jesus' comment on fornication has nothing to do with the hardness of heart issue, and He makes it clear in the context. The hardness of heart issue had to do with divorce for any reason. Then He says that the way it was meant to be was one man, one woman, and there should be no divorce, save for the cause of fornication.  So here He gives one good cause for divorce. And of course, the believer/unbeliever issue isn't brought yet into play because as yet there are no believers/unbelievers, per se, or no saved/unsaved-He is dealing with the people of Israel, God's people still at the time.  Paul deals with the church, regenerate married to unregenerate, which the Bible makes clear is not God's will in the first place, unless two are married as both unsaved, then one is saved.

 

To try and explain away the clear words of Jesus and Paul is why so many divorced people are thrown away by churches. It has been my experience in some IFB churches who see it that way, that a divorced person is good for two things only: to fill a seat and to pay a tithe. Otherwise sit down and shut up.

[prophet1]

Ohh goodness. Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers. He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce. God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.

Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.

Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:

"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."

If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce. In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27? Remain unmarried or be reconciled. God is not the author of confusion folks.



Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.

Tis true, that Jesus gave us no new commandment, neither did He seek to undo the Law.
This would happen at His Death, God would rend the Veil.

Paul was given instructions for the Church that were different. Why?
Because they were people who werent raised under The National Jewish Law. This is of utmost importance, as some of the Epistles of the Apostles were written to Christians converted from Judaism, who still lived in an area that enforced Mosaic/ pharisaic law, until 70 A.D.

The Gentiles, having not known the Law, were instructed not to hold their spouses who would not be converted, if they wanted to leave.

Any Gentile , no matter what their Marital status before their new birth,
was only held to what they did afterwards.
So, yeah, there is a whole lot of divorce, when married people get saved, and it is to be expected, it is dealt with.
Let them go, or let them stay, it's the choice of there Free Will, and is a picture, once again, of our Free Will choice to choose our brideGroom, Christ.

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

1Co 7:12-16
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?


Anishinaabe

[wretched]

John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

 

Wow, I think Heartstrings is definitely onto something important here. I have never thought of it in this way and IMO, this makes very good sense.