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Mark And Avoid Or Spit Out The Bones?

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If you study the word "fornication" in scripture you'll notice it is usually the word used associated with prostitutes. There's also a religious aspect to it in many cases. 

 

I find it interesting too, that though David had 22 wives only in the case of Bathsheba was he considered an adulterer. 

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We should also keep in mind that in God's perfect plan, as Jesus pointed out, there should be no divorce for any reason.

Yes, if we all re-lied on the Holy Spirit to choose our spouse, and not our emotions, we would never have the need for divorce 'cause God won't make a mistake in His choosing. 

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No one, who has never been married, can be a bishop...God's rules, deal with it. 1Ti 3:2 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sOBer, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1Ti 3:4-5 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) "Must" means "must" There are plenty of Gifts, and Calling for single men, just no Offices. Anishinaabe

I thought most in this forum believed the Bible to be the literal Word of God?  How can we say we believe it is literal and then try to find a loop hole with a word as easy to understand as "must"? 

 

As far as the arguement that there have been people saved under the preaching of divorced men, it ain't the divorced man that saves, it is the Holy Spirit convicting the person's heart.  A stopped clock is right twice aday.  There has been people saved under unsaved preachers.  That is not a good arguement for ignoring God's Word.  The church that had some saved under the divorced man, you never know, had they OBeyed God, God might have blessed that church into becoming a huge church seeing hundreds maybe thousands saved.  OBedience will bring blessings more so than disOBedience. 

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A married person can commit fornication and adultery

 

 

I have found (over the past 40+ years) that showing people the differences in the wording between the Holy Bible and the per-versions is the most effective way to convince people who are genuinely interested in the truth that the modern bibles are corrupt and untrustworthy.

However, I believe that the definition given for the word “fornication” is in error.

According to the Holy Bible, when a married person engages in sexual intercourse with someone other than their spouse they are engaged in fornication.

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Since the Scriptures clearly distinguish between the words “fornication” and “adultery” [Galatians 5:19], the definition of the word “fornication” was assumed to be “Sexual intercourse between unmarried people”; but since, according to the Bible, a married person - a wife in the case of Matthew 5:32 & Matthew 19:9 - can commit fornication, the definition of fornication would have to be: “Illicit (illegal or unlawful) sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

•  When two unmarried people engage sexual intercourse they are guilty of committing the sin of “fornication”.

•  When a married person engages in sexual intercourse with someone other than their spouse they are not only guilty of committing the sin of “fornication”, but they are also guilty of committing the sin of “adultery” – because they have adulterated the marriage bond or covenant.

•  Only married people can commit the sin of adultery. While anyone (single or married) who engages in “illicit (illegal or unlawful) sexual intercourse outside of marriage” is guilty of the sin of fornication.

Like I said the two terms go together.

 

But I hope this is helpful.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Interesting point made by ROBmac.

 

So the bearing of fruit in a Bible Believing Church is directly related to their OBedience of the Scriptures?

 

If little fruit or continual trouble in the Church, then the Pastor is not Scripturally qualified to Pastor? Perhaps he has just been fooling himself all along with purposely misinterpreting the qualifications of the office. There are several quals, not just divorce.

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Interesting point made by ROBmac.

 

So the bearing of fruit in a Bible Believing Church is directly related to their OBedience of the Scriptures?

 

 

Isn't that the best measure of the health of a local church?  Your second statement which is not quoted, about "continued trouble" disqualifying the pastor, well, that has to be defined.  Pastors are always dealing with trouble, the flock is made up of sinners with all kinds of prOBlems.  But missing or misuse of funds, collapse of separation among the members, a worldly congregation, rock music, etc., yes, those are signs that the pastor has failed in his duties.     

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Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

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Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

can you find a Biblical pattern for courtship and marriage?

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Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

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John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

 

When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

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All the camels on earth wouldn't be a fraction of the worth of my daughter. Only a godly young man could even come close to having enough 'camels' to suit me.

 

Jesus wants us to marry for life. My one and only Wife and I have been married 29 years and we're going for 29 more, at least. But if a spouse is a fornicator, Jesus said "except it be for fornication". Stay away from fornication and we'll all be just fine.

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All the camels on earth wouldn't be a fraction of the worth of my daughter. Only a godly young man could even come close to having enough 'camels' to suit me.

 

All that camel stuff is a joke Wayne!  

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When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

So basically you just disregard the words of Jesus when He said, "Except it be for fornication". When Jesus said that, He wasn't saying actually saying this was an acceptable reason for divorce, He was actually saying you CAN'T get divorced for it. That's silly and putting man's spin on it.

 

Now understand, I am not saying that He meant you MUST get divorced for it-certainly reconciliation and repentance would be the preferred route, but Jesus clearly DID say that for fornication, a man could divorce his wife. AND Paul added, through direction of the Spirit, that a believer who is abandoned by an unbeliving spouse was not under bondage to that person, and thus was free to let them go and remarry.

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When Jesus spoke about divorce, he did not change the rules at all, he merely brought them back to the Old Testament.  Paul gave us the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  Which means, there is to be no divorce for any reason at all in this age.  Choose wisely.

 

Now as for biblical examples of courtship I think it went like this:  A young man eyes a lady, finds her Dad and offers him camels for his daughter.  They negotiate and an agreement is reached and the daughter marries the young man.  If they both love the Lord, they'll soon fall in love.  I've got on daughter available now for 300 camels.  They price will be 500 head after college.  

Ok so who do you follow Moses, Jesus or Paul?

 

How do you make the distinction?

 

And why do you  follow the one you chose too over the others?

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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So basically you just disregard the words of Jesus when He said, "Except it be for fornication". When Jesus said that, He wasn't saying actually saying this was an acceptable reason for divorce, He was actually saying you CAN'T get divorced for it. That's silly and putting man's spin on it.

 

Now understand, I am not saying that He meant you MUST get divorced for it-certainly reconciliation and repentance would be the preferred route, but Jesus clearly DID say that for fornication, a man could divorce his wife. AND Paul added, through direction of the Spirit, that a believer who is abandoned by an unbeliving spouse was not under bondage to that person, and thus was free to let them go and remarry.

 

Ohh goodness.  Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers.  He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce.  God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.   
 
Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.  
 
Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:
 
"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
 
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
 
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
 
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
 
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
 
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
 
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."
 
If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce.  In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27?  Remain unmarried or be reconciled.  God is not the author of confusion folks.
 

 

Ok so who do you follow Moses, Jesus or Paul?

 

How do you make the distinction?

 

And why do you  follow the one you chose too over the others?

 

Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

 

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.

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Ohh goodness.  Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers.  He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce.  God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.   
 
Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.  
 
Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:
 
"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
 
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
 
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
 
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
 
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
 
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
 
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."
 
If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce.  In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27?  Remain unmarried or be reconciled.  God is not the author of confusion folks.
 

 

 

Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

 

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.

 

Then what does Paul mean when he says,15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:"?

 

Under bondage to what? It means we are not under bondage to that unbelieving spouse that has left-its abandonment. If my unbelieving wife left me, walked out, wanted a divorce, Paul is saying that I am not under bondage to that person-thus, if we dvorce and I remarry, I am free to do so. Not under bondage means not bound to them.

 

Jesus' comment on fornication has nothing to do with the hardness of heart issue, and He makes it clear in the context. The hardness of heart issue had to do with divorce for any reason. Then He says that the way it was meant to be was one man, one woman, and there should be no divorce, save for the cause of fornication.  So here He gives one good cause for divorce. And of course, the believer/unbeliever issue isn't brought yet into play because as yet there are no believers/unbelievers, per se, or no saved/unsaved-He is dealing with the people of Israel, God's people still at the time.  Paul deals with the church, regenerate married to unregenerate, which the Bible makes clear is not God's will in the first place, unless two are married as both unsaved, then one is saved.

 

To try and explain away the clear words of Jesus and Paul is why so many divorced people are thrown away by churches. It has been my experience in some IFB churches who see it that way, that a divorced person is good for two things only: to fill a seat and to pay a tithe. Otherwise sit down and shut up.

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Ohh goodness. Jesus never allowed for divorce for the church age believers. He brought the Pharisees back to the beginning when there was no divorce. God allowed divorce from Moses' time until the church age only for fornication because of the hardness of men's hearts.

Paul reaffirms the original plan, no divorce.

Here's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:

"10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:


11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.


13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.


14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.


27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."


If verse 15 meant that one is free to remarry, then Paul is a fool and by extension the Lord for contradicting themselves here when in verse 10 Paul tells us there is to be no divorce. In addition, if verse 15 again means one is free to remarry, why bother giving us verse 11 and 27? Remain unmarried or be reconciled. God is not the author of confusion folks.



Easy, Paul because I'm in the church age.

Jesus gave us no new doctrine, he just reiterated the original plan and what God permitted through Moses because of man's hardened heart.
Tis true, that Jesus gave us no new commandment, neither did He seek to undo the Law.
This would happen at His Death, God would rend the Veil.

Paul was given instructions for the Church that were different. Why?
Because they were people who werent raised under The National Jewish Law. This is of utmost importance, as some of the Epistles of the Apostles were written to Christians converted from Judaism, who still lived in an area that enforced Mosaic/ pharisaic law, until 70 A.D.

The Gentiles, having not known the Law, were instructed not to hold their spouses who would not be converted, if they wanted to leave.

Any Gentile , no matter what their Marital status before their new birth,
was only held to what they did afterwards.
So, yeah, there is a whole lot of divorce, when married people get saved, and it is to be expected, it is dealt with.
Let them go, or let them stay, it's the choice of there Free Will, and is a picture, once again, of our Free Will choice to choose our brideGroom, Christ.

Anishinaabe

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1Co 7:12-16
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?


Anishinaabe

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John,

If you remember, the OT law allowed a man to divorce his wife simply if she "found no favor in his eyes" (Deuteronomy 24:1-3). That truly qualifies as "hardness if heart". But the thing Jesus spoke of, "Fornication", was punishable by death. So was adultery. Like I said, if Dad or Mom is molesting the kids or some other perversion, that qualifies as fornication. Jesus said "except it be for fornication". That is not hardness of heart or failure to forgive: that is for safety.

 

Wow, I think Heartstrings is definitely onto something important here. I have never thought of it in this way and IMO, this makes very good sense.

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