Baptist?

[swathdiver]

So when and where did the IFB churches and schools begin teaching this charismatic understanding of Scripture? 

 

 

I've seen a lot of this come out of Michigan area preachers and pastors.  Ruckman, wherever he was from, embraced it too.

 

David Peacock and Douglas Stauffer are some others.

 

When one goes down that road, historic positions held by Independent Baptists now mirror those of the universal, invisible, charismatic crowd.  

[Steve Schwenke]

you are confusing the issue, and putting things into my mouth that I did not say. 

I said that the post trib rapture is a charismatic teaching, not an IFB teaching.

You are saying that dispensationalism is a charismatic teaching, which is not true, as I demonstrated. 

Whatever Dr. Ruckman's faults, he is certainly NOT a charismatic.  From your perspective, he might be labeled a hyper-dispensationalist, but that is a far cry from a charismatic.  Ruckman pastors at Bible BAPTIST church, for better or for worse.

 

The question I posed, as an extension of the OP had to do with where IFB churches strayed from a mild form of dispy, pre-trib rapture, and started teaching that the church goes through the trib, post trib rapture, etc.  This is the stuff the charismatics are teaching and have been teaching for years.

 

I think you have an issue with the term dispensationalism, so when I say a "mild form of dispy," what I mean is that IFB churches have for a long time recognized a difference between the church and Israel, the restoration of Israel, ante-covenant theology (AKA replacement theology), the Tribulation is yet future, as is a literal return of Christ to the earth followed by a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.  I am not talking about Ruckman's different plans of salvation, or all of the other nit-picky stuff that goes along with the arguments within dispensationalism.

 

So don't go around calling me a "heretic" or anything childish like that.  The real heresy is preterism and covenant theology.

 

But AGAIN

The OP asks how people call themselves IFB when they don't hold to the same doctrines IFB's have held to since the early 1900's. 

[swathdiver]

you are confusing the issue, and putting things into my mouth that I did not say. 

 

Are you talkin' to me?  It would help me to know who a post is addressed to by either naming that person or quoting them or maybe another way?

[Ukulelemike]

Its funny-one of the primary reasons I finally decided to look into a less than traditional IFB view on the timing of the rapture, was because of the many unsound churches, like pentecostals, charismatics and new evangelicals held to the pre-trib rapture. It irked me, I guess, that there was so much easy-belivism, so much worldliness and carnality in so many 'churches', who believed that they deserved to escape tribulation, that they would suffer no worldly pains and woes, because jesus would just come and whisk them away. Meanwhile, Christians in most other countries were suffering greatly for their faith, willing to truly count the cost. The only relief many of these are concerned with is that which will come more than likely at the end of a sword or barrel of a rifle. 

 

So, yeah, it bugged me that I shared a position with people who counted themselves priviledged. However, that was not why I eventually went the way I did: rather, I found the arguments for a later rapture much more compelling that what I had always been taught. So much of what I had held to before just didn't wash. It seems as though so much context is ignored, so much clear scripture skipped over, even having seen it in myself. Things that only made sense from a position of a later rapture. So its odd that the post-trib/pre-wrath position is considerd a charismatic view, because they are a big part of why I began to move away from pre-trib.

[prophet1]

Prophet, this is what this thread is all about. I was raised in IFB churches, and have been in them my entire life. My grandfathers were IFB preachers who were trained in IFB schools way back in the 40's and 50's, and they taught a mild form of dispensationalism, along with a pre-trib rapture.

The thread asks the question about what are IFB teachings? For decades upon decades, and even longer, our IFB churches have been teaching similar things across the board. During the same time, as the Evangelical movement, and then their spawn - the Charismatics, grew in ascendancy, this post-trib or "pre-wrath" rapture teaching began to grow in popularity. The IFB soundly rejected this teaching.

So when and where did the IFB churches and schools begin teaching this charismatic understanding of Scripture?
Do you personally attend an IFB church?
What separates IFB's from other schools of theology?

That is what this thread is all about - not another rehash of your own pet doctrine. If you want to debate that doctrine, then start your own thread on it. Not that I'll join you there or anything....

I am Independent Baptist.
I grew up IFB
Trained in ministry by IFB
Learned what was wrong with our movement first hand.

Many IFB hold to the actual Scriptures on End times eschatology.

More do not.

Since we are all independent, there is no 1 set of beliefs, other than these:

Biblical Authority
Autonomous Local Church
Priesthood of Believer
Two Church Offices
Individual Soul Liberty
Saved Baptized Church Membership
Two Church Ordinances
Separation of Church and State

Anything not on this list, is debatable, and should be debated, so we don't just parrot false doctrine for centuries, like :pretrib and dispy, Lordship salvation, Calvinism, etc.

The prOBlem that you have, with the way I address this topic, lies in your lack of research into where these teachings came from.

You have to understand, that dispensationalism made it's way into our movement through the same bad players who brought us the Vatican English Bible versions, and skewed eschatology.
They were proponents of Calvinism, but Baptists, so they watered down Dispy Teachings, and served em up.

For instance: Scofield had a follower, who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, in order to propogate Scofield's teachings.

Many of us were influenced by the Dallas area Baptists, who include Rice, Roloff, Hyles, and etc.

Also, much doctrinal error was introduced through Protestants, like Torrey, Finney, Sunday, BOBJones, and etc.

So every generation needs to reinvestigate the Scripture for themself.

Would you say that we (IFB) are raising all of our children to be stronger in the faith than us, our are they weaker?

I personally don't think we'll last another generation, at this speed.

Also, when you think you are right, because of where you came from, and wish to avoid defending your beliefs, you are part of the death of the movement, and not the resurrection.

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

Anyone who wants to, can download a copy of "After The Tribulation", an IFB film. From YouTube I am mentioned in the credits, because I spent hundreds of hours studying the Scriptures with Bro.Anderson. We started a couple of churches together. He has since planted 3 more. We are IFB Pre-Trib is Charismatic. Pre-Wrath is Bible. Anishinaabe

[Ukulelemike]

I am Independent Baptist.
I grew up IFB
Trained in ministry by IFB
Learned what was wrong with our movement first hand.

Many IFB hold to the actual Scriptures on End times eschatology.

More do not.

Since we are all independent, there is no 1 set of beliefs, other than these:

Biblical Authority
Autonomous Local Church
Priesthood of Believer
Two Church Offices
Individual Soul Liberty
Saved Baptized Church Membership
Two Church Ordinances
Separation of Church and State

Anything not on this list, is debatable, and should be debated, so we don't just parrot false doctrine for centuries, like :pretrib and dispy, Lordship salvation, Calvinism, etc.

The prOBlem that you have, with the way I address this topic, lies in your lack of research into where these teachings came from.

You have to understand, that dispensationalism made it's way into our movement through the same bad players who brought us the Vatican English Bible versions, and skewed eschatology.
They were proponents of Calvinism, but Baptists, so they watered down Dispy Teachings, and served em up.

For instance: Scofield had a follower, who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, in order to propogate Scofield's teachings.

Many of us were influenced by the Dallas area Baptists, who include Rice, Roloff, Hyles, and etc.

Also, much doctrinal error was introduced through Protestants, like Torrey, Finney, Sunday, BOBJones, and etc.

So every generation needs to reinvestigate the Scripture for themself.

Would you say that we (IFB) are raising all of our children to be stronger in the faith than us, our are they weaker?

I personally don't think we'll last another generation, at this speed.

Also, when you think you are right, because of where you came from, and wish to avoid defending your beliefs, you are part of the death of the movement, and not the resurrection.

Anishinaabe

So...

 

 

Salvation by grace through faith alone

Virgin Birth, Diety, literal death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ

security of salvation

The Triune Godhead

Reality of heaven and Hell

 

 

These are not doctrines we concern ourselves with? They are debatables?

[prophet1]

So...


Salvation by grace through faith alone
Virgin Birth, Diety, literal death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ
security of salvation
The Triune Godhead
Reality of heaven and Hell


These are not doctrines we concern ourselves with? They are debatables?

As Baptists, we hold to the distinctives I listed.
As fundamenalists, we hold to your list.

Thanks for the Help.

Anishinaabe

[ASongOfDegrees]

Prophet, this is what this thread is all about.  I was raised in IFB churches, and have been in them my entire life.  My grandfathers were IFB preachers who were trained in IFB schools way back in the 40's and 50's, and they taught a mild form of dispensationalism, along with a pre-trib rapture. 

 

The thread asks the question about what are IFB teachings?  For decades upon decades, and even longer, our IFB churches have been teaching similar things across the board.  During the same time, as the Evangelical movement, and then their spawn - the Charismatics, grew in ascendancy, this post-trib or "pre-wrath" rapture teaching began to grow in popularity.  The IFB soundly rejected this teaching.

 

So when and where did the IFB churches and schools begin teaching this charismatic understanding of Scripture? 

Do you personally attend an IFB church? 

What separates IFB's from other schools of theology? 

 

That is what this thread is all about - not another rehash of your own pet doctrine.  If you want to debate that doctrine, then start your own thread on it.  Not that I'll join you there or anything....

The pre-wrath rapture view was popularized by Marvin Rosenthal of Zion Hope Ministries. It was the typical misapplication of verses to the church that were aimed at Israel. Isaiah 28:14-21 is one example that he used.

 

The Charismatics really bought into this teaching. 

[prophet1]

The pre-wrath rapture view was popularized by Marvin Rosenthal of Zion Hope Ministries. It was the typical misapplication of verses to the church that were aimed at Israel. Isaiah 28:14-21 is one example that he used.

The Charismatics really bought into this teaching.

I haven't heard of ZHM.

But I have heard of Peter, James, John, Philip, Andrew, and etc.

They were told this:

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After they asked this:

Mat 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


So unless Jesus was forgetful, or a liar (I speak as a fool), then He meant "after the tribulation"

These men started the Church.

Oh...and Israel?

Jesus said something to them ( the unbelievers, of course) right before that:

Mat 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

The Assembly of God, Church of God, C.O.G.I.C., United Pentecostal, all subscribed to PreTrib, until recently.
I haven't heard different.

Anishinaabe

[John81]

This could be a very useful discussion if everyone is civil and presents their points without personal attacks or jabs.

 

Outside of the fundamentals of the faith, which IFBs first formed around a little over a century ago, the Independent factor meant, and still means, that each IFB church sets their own stances on other matters. On some points there is more or less agreement than others within IFB.

 

If anything, some IFB churches in the past were even more independent. Today it seems many want to associate with a particular "camp" within IFB and this trend seems to be leading to some awkward associations and disparities of stances.

 

I know an IFB pastor/missionary (he's been both over the years) who was once staunchly pre-trib but after spending a year in intense study and prayer decided that wasn't what the Bible teaches. Even knowing he would lose much support, he announced his study findings, pointed out why he could no longer accept the pre-trib position and outlined why he now holds to what be believes to be the actual biblical position.

 

I know a couple others who are yet undecided on the matter. The others I know of hold to pre-trib.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I haven't heard of ZHM.

But I have heard of Peter, James, John, Philip, Andrew, and etc.

They were told this:

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After they asked this:

Mat 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


So unless Jesus was forgetful, or a liar (I speak as a fool), then He meant "after the tribulation"

These men started the Church.

Oh...and Israel?

Jesus said something to them ( the unbelievers, of course) right before that:

Mat 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Anishinaabe

I thought Christ started the church?

 

Find one spot in Matthew 24 were the Church is mentioned. You assume because he is speaking to the apostles then that must mean he is speaking to the church. The apostles were Jews waiting for the kingdom to be restored to Israel. The church hadn't even been purchased yet at this time. In fact, according to Acts 2:14-22 there was still a chance for Israel to be saved and the tribulation to begin in Acts 2:14-22. 

 

Read Acts 2:14-22. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I haven't heard of ZHM.

But I have heard of Peter, James, John, Philip, Andrew, and etc.

They were told this:

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After they asked this:

Mat 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


So unless Jesus was forgetful, or a liar (I speak as a fool), then He meant "after the tribulation"

These men started the Church.

Oh...and Israel?

Jesus said something to them ( the unbelievers, of course) right before that:

Mat 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Anishinaabe

Matthew 24 - speaking of Israel... His elect.  The Church was raptured prior to this appearance of  the Lord.

[Steve Schwenke]

Swathdiver, yes I addressed my last post to you....sorry, I should have put your name on it.  For some inexplicable reason, my computer will not use the "quote" function or the "paste" function on this website.  this is the only website I have trouble with those functions.  weird......so anyway, yes that last one was to you.

 

Prophet, I was addressing who was "right" and who was "wrong."  I was addressing what IFB's have been teaching since before you were born. 

And show a little respect.  You (wrongly) assume that because I don't agree with YOU that therefore I must not have "done my research."  What arrogance to be so presumptuous to make such a FALSE accusation!

 

And once again, the Mods here did not "catch" that retort and rebuke it! 

 

Congrats, Prophet.  You made it on to my "ignore" list, so I won't have to read any of your bile in the future.  I am not here to argue my position - the ministry of the church which God has privileged me to pastor gives me enough "issues" to deal with.  I don't have time for unteachable, arrogant children like you.  I am here to be a help and blessing to any and all who are willing to listen, ask reasonable questions, and have an adult-level conversation.

 

In Christ,