United Church Of God

[DaveW]

........ My issue with Sawth is his interchangeable terms of local church and Body of Christ. They are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same.

I continue to be amazed at the lack of biblical defense mods on this site. Many times blatant heretical statements stand unopposed. Swathdivers statement in an earlier post on this thread is blatantly false, and not one mod said a word. Wow.

I think I´m gonna sign off and leave you folks to yourselves.

God bless,

calvary

Mr Calvary,
You have made the statement that the body of Christ and the local church "... are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same."

I asked for references to that effect, was questioned to the opposing verses which I referenced (didn't quote though). These references in many cases only make sense in a local church setting, thereby showing your statement above to false - the body DOES at least some of the time refer to the local church.

Please do us the courtesy of providing those verses which clearly show that the body of Christ is ONLY EVER referring to the wider group of all believers.

If they exist I would be happy to see them.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I'm confused about what is being said here.  Just looking for clarification and not trying to dispute.  So...am I understanding this correctly?  If you are a member of a local church, that makes you part of the body of Christ?  And if you are not a member of a local church, then you are not part of the body of Christ?  Don't you become part of the body of Christ at salvation?  I'll wait for an answer to that before I ask the other questions I have in mind as not to cause confusion.

The body of Christ and the church (all the born again believers in heaven and earth) are one and the same because the body of Christ is made up of born again believers (we are said to be flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone) with Christ as the head. Believers congregate in local churches or assemblies when they worship. The problem is the local church can and does contain unsaved people. So to say the LOCAL church is the body of Christ is to say that Christ is united with unbelievers. 

 

Yes, you are baptized into the body of Christ through the Holy Ghost when you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and thus become part of the church (which is his body). But you still need to be baptized in water as a testimony to others that you have been saved. Most local churches require you to be baptized before joining. This does NOT mean you need to be rebaptized everytime you join a new church. That is what is called Baptist Briderism or Landmarkism.

[DaveW]

Please.....
show me a verse that uses the term "body" in relation to all believers.

There are some that are vague and might possibly imply it, but the passages I listed earlier by and large imply - and in cases state - the body is the local church.

I do not see a Biblical reason to use the term body when speaking of all believers.

If it is there, then I would be happy to be shown it.

As far as I can tell all passages that use the word body in this way are either vague or local church - I do not see one that clearly uses body to refer to all believers.

[Left the Bldg]

Based on my understanding of scripture the "body" can be applied two-fold.  Local and universal.  I will only give scripture that applies to universal.

 

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Who did Christ give himself for?  Believers.  Is everyone in a local church a believer?

 

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Is every member of a local church members of his body?  What about believers who have died?  Are they still not members of his body even though they are not in a local church because they have gone to be with the Lord?

 

1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Who is chosen?  Who were called out?  Believers or the local church?

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.  Who are now the people of God and have obtained mercy?  Believers.

 

Romans 12:4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:  How can the local church be one body when there are many local churches.  That would make them many bodies.

 

Ephesians 1:22-23 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Who does Christ fill?  He fills the believer not the local church.

 

Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  There is one body (but many local churches).  "and in you all" (who is he in?  The believer.  Not the local church.

 

Paul warned against false teachers that were trying to infiltrate the church.  So not everyone in a local church is a true believer.  2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

1 Cor 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.  This letter was written by Paul to the local church at Corinth.  Some in the church did not have the knowledge of God.

 

I hope this helps.  If I am wrong, please show me. 

[Ukulelemike]

Anyone who teaches that water baptism puts one in the Body of Christ, is teaching heresy. Swath in a previous post made that statement. This last statement is again, a conclusion that because the thief on the cross was not in fact baptized in water, he therefore is not a part of the Body of Christ. That Mike, is heresy. Period. We are not talking about polemics, and neither is the issue about any motive for water baptism, to which I say, obedience is principle, My issue with Sawth is his interchangeable terms of local church and Body of Christ. They are not, never have been and cannot be one and the same.

 

I continue to be amazed at the lack of biblical defense mods on this site. Many times blatant heretical statements stand unopposed. Swathdivers statement in an earlier post on this thread is blatantly false, and not one mod said a word. Wow.

 

I think I´m gonna sign off and leave you folks to yourselves.

 

God bless,

 

calvary

He never said baptism puts one in the body of Christ-he said it puts one in a New testament church, ie, a local  assembly. Big difference,

 

He said, "It means they are still rebellious if they know they're supposed to get baptized and become a member of a New Testament Church and don't."  (emphasis mine).

 

I continue to be amazed at people who don't carefully read a post before criticizing it.

[DaveW]

Hey LJ,

The thing is that many of those passages you reference are not about "the body".

Those that are, if you follow their context further there are clear indications of local Church application.
Eph 4:4 appears to indicate universal but read on through the chapter - clearly local application.
Eph 5 - the Lord certainly gave himself for the church - that is exactly what it says. We can assume it does not include the pretenders, but it says what it says.

My real point was that it was claimed that the body NEVER refers to the local church - it most certainly does, and in fact while some verses are unclear, the majority lean towards local, while none are 100% clearly Only universal.

Based on that, it is my opinion that the term "body" when not used to refer to a single person, refers to the local church.

The Bible certainly at times speaks of the wider group of all believers, but doesn't appear to refer to that group as "body".

At least three people here have solidly claimed that it does, but none have given a single clear passage proving that, in spite of one of them being quite scathing of our mods over the issue.
In fact you (not one of the three) are the only one who has commented on this particular issue.

Having said all of that, it goes against what we like to think in some ways, but I am looking at what is written, not what we like to think it means.
Some of the passages might be taken universally, but all can make sense locally.
The strongest clear passages apply locally.

Does that make sense?

[DaveW]

Romans 12

 4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

 5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

 7  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

 8  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

The thing with this passage is: where do we do these things?
Paul is talking to individuals about how to live with others and how to serve with others - within the body.
You as an individual, minister to those within the body where? Where you are.
These ministries mentioned are done by individuals within their local body.

For instance, those who rule do not rule people in Pakistan when they are in Ireland.
Who Lord has placed to rule, rule within the local church they are placed.This means that vs 4 & 5 are referring to EACH individual local church as the body in Christ.
It is the only way the whole passage makes sense.

[JerryNumbers]

Not teaching or preaching baptismal regeneration at all.  Baptism is a believer's first outward sign of obedience to God and faith in Jesus Christ AND is also done once for entry into a New Testament Church.  The New Testament Church is the Body of Christ.  

 

I am struggling with friends over this very issue, they believe in the invisible, universal church, believing they are a church and as individuals the literal Body of Christ.  Unless I'm missing something, the local church is the Body of Christ.

 

 

 

Same here!

 

Sad to say even among us Baptist there's some very wonderful brothers & sisters that never gets this right, misunderstand it when its stated. Will put down a fellow brother or sisters whom has stated it properly. There is also many of our Baptist brothers & sisters that never understand this & will take a strong stand for many of the churches that teach works, baptizing, & church membership saves.

 

Down south of us years back a man went to a Baptist Church in his old age because the doctor had said he did not have long to live & asked them to baptize him. he stated I was saved as a young boy but never got baptize nor attended church.

 

Now this prat is my understanding of what took place, I was not there so I know little about it only what a person that was there told me. And according to him their pastor did not question him about his profession & ask for any type of testimony. That he accepted the words I got saved when I was a young boy.

 

It kind of seems that this man was trusting being baptized to save himself & he wanted to be sure & get baptized before he died. And accordingly to what was told me after being baptized he never entered a church again.

[Left the Bldg]

Hi Dave W.

 

In the spirit of seeking truth, which is always my aim, I need to ask some questions to get a better understanding of what you're saying.  i tried to go back and read posts.  There are 4 pages already and it's making me a scatter brain.  :-)  I also read the article you posted in an earlier post a few pages back.  I also read the whole chapters of the verses I used to make sure I was applying them in context.  I'll start with one question at a time.  Baby steps.  OK?  Please bear with me.  My questions might seem infantile at first but I am trying to get to a big picture. 

 

1.  In order to be in the "body" of Christ, you have to be water baptized in the local church?

[DaveW]

Hi Dave W.

In the spirit of seeking truth, which is always my aim, I need to ask some questions to get a better understanding of what you're saying. i tried to go back and read posts. There are 4 pages already and it's making me a scatter brain. :-) I also read the article you posted in an earlier post a few pages back. I also read the whole chapters of the verses I used to make sure I was applying them in context. I'll start with one question at a time. Baby steps. OK? Please bear with me. My questions might seem infantile at first but I am trying to get to a big picture.

1. In order to be in the "body" of Christ, you have to be water baptized in the local church?

There is a problem with your question.

You must first establish what "the body of Christ" is before you can answer it.

If the "body of Christ" is universal then no - baptism can not make you part of all believers - salvation does that.

If the "body" is the local church then there are indications that baptism is the doorway to membership of a local church.

This is why it is important to figure this one out - it affects all sorts of other bits.

1 Cor 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

if the body in this verse is all believers then the baptism must be spiritual baptism of some sort - if the body is a local church it COULD be water baptism.

If you continue reading that chapter you find it talks of interpersonal relationships in the body - not possible if you are talking universal. The context indicates that vs 13 is talking local.

I actually think the main problem is a confusion of terms.
The Bible does talk about the wider group of believers at times, but it seems to me that the term "body" most easily relates to the local church.

So then, salvation makes you part of the wider group of all believers, independent of any relationship to any church, water baptism can be related to church membership.

So to answer what I THINK YOU ARE ASKING....in order to be a part of the wider group of all believers neither water baptism nor Church membership are necessary, only salvation - to be a part of a body of Christ (as far as I can see biblically, an individual local church) water baptism appears to be the doorway.

Does that help?

[Miss Daisy]

Sometimes people on here forget that not everyone on here has been IFB for 20 years!

[DaveW]

Sometimes people on here forget that not everyone on here has been IFB for 20 years!

Am I being too "deep" or assuming too much

I hope I am coming across as helpful - I don't mean to sound otherwise....

Things don't always come across right.... sorry.

[Left the Bldg]

Then let me rephrase.  In order to be in the "body", you have to be water baptized in the local church?

 

Your answer:  "but it seems to me that the term "body" most easily relates to the local church."

 

So my next question...

 

2.  If I don't get water baptized in my local church, I am not part of the "body?"

[Left the Bldg]

Am I being too "deep" or assuming too much

I hope I am coming across as helpful - I don't mean to sound otherwise....

Things don't always come across right.... sorry.

I want you to know in advance in regards to me...I'm just asking questions because I want to get some things straightened out for myself.  I promise that I'm not offended or taking anything the wrong way.  You are helping me.  Keep that in mind when you answer my dumb questions.  :-)  And thanks for taking the time.

[DaveW]

Then let me rephrase. In order to be in the "body", you have to be water baptized in the local church?

Your answer: "but it seems to me that the term "body" most easily relates to the local church."

So my next question...

2. If I don't get water baptized in my local church, I am not part of the "body?"

IF the body is the local church, then I would have to say yes.
Although there is indication (can't remember where. ..) that someone was accepted to another church by letter.
So I would suggest that transfer to another biblical church can be done that way, assuming the person was scripturally baptised into the church they are coming from.