The Lord’S Intent

[Steve Schwenke]

Good evening swathdiver

I will briefly answer your question, before getting back to my responses to Steve.

You asked......
“Donald, are you saying here that one can only really learn and grow through prayer and not the Bible, pastors or preachers?”

Of course not......
Ephesians 4:11-12
V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
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All of these elements are important and needed(God’s Word, prayer & preachers).
But none of them can be put into a vacuum.  You can’t say, “either believe the Bible or follow the Holy Spirit’s leadership”.
Remember the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible(He gave God’s Word to the men who pinned it).  Therefore the Holy Spirit can never contradict Bible Doctrine.
But He will contradict man’s doctrine, every time.
And that is what this entire argument boils down to.  “Bible Doctrine" or "man’s doctrine”.

Now some have said, “what’s the harm with man’s doctrine, if it's good and protects us from getting away from the Lord?”
And you and I may not see too much wrong with some good man’s teachings, that help us to stay out of trouble. 

But the Lord sure does see something wrong with it........
Mark 7:7
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”

According to Jesus, if we are teaching or following even “ONE” doctrine(teaching), that is from the mind of men, OUR WORSHIP BECOMES EMPTY AND WORTHLESS!

See you later.
 

This is good.

You see, this is the first time I recall reading this in your posts.  Previously, you seem to rely SOLELY upon "the leading of the Holy Spirit" but you have not clarified what that means or how that works.  So it is left in the realm of subjectivity.  I can agree with your statement above: "All of theses elements are important and needed."   This has been my point from the beginning - the word of God, careful study, and the Holy Spirit guiding us through the word of God.

 

We are also in agreement when you say, "Therefore the HOly Spirit can never contradict Bible Doctrine."  Absolutely.  But you see, you never said that before, even when I attempted to point out that when people say that they are "following the Holy Spirit" that they really mean they are rejecting the Bible to do what they want and then blaming it on God.  So now we are getting somewhere. 

 

I also agree that we as fallible men sometimes carry things to far and make a "doctrine" out of our own interpretation of "grey areas."  What John 81 listed about the differences between IFB churches on dresses on women, beards on men, white shirts only for men, the length of hair for male and female - yes, all of those things ARE "grey" and each individual church will need to be in agreement on those issues.  These are items that too many IFB churches can "go to seed" on - not that they are not important issues, just that we are not always going to apply the issue the same way. 

 

However, Donald, you never listed any thing similar to those issues.  You listed specifically music and TV.  That was all you listed.  You stated specifically that the Holy Spirit never convicted you about your music.  So you are the classic example of what I said previously - rejecting Biblical teaching that is crystal clear on a subject, refusing to educate yourself on the subject of music, and then concluding that anyone who preaches against rock music is promoting spiritual weakness and is preaching "man's doctrine." 

Such is not the case WITH MUSIC. 

Such is the case with the other stuff I listed. 

 

In Christ,

[irishman]

Whether IFB churches agree on modesty is irrelevant, the important thing is that we practice modesty and as was stated earlier by Happy Christian, that can be a matter of personal interpretation (something along those lines).   Yes, a man will lust when women are not properly dressed, why do you think there is such a thing as "the attire if a harlot"?  It is also true that many of us are lax in controlling our eyes; men are stimulated through the eye gate, while woman are (generally) more emotional, and our moved by emotion and feelings.  THAT is why we all ought to dress right.  

 

I still refer to the little outline I posted earlier, how does this affect me spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally, and any other way.  Purity is our desire, and should be our goal.  That is why i see no "grey areas in the Bible; we all know, deep down, what's right and what is not, does not even nature itself tell us these things?

 

1Co 11:14  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

 What is "long hair"?  I believe we can all discern what it is when we see men around with long hair.  No need to nit-pick.

[swathdiver]

Hate to say this, but if a man's gonna lust, the dress length isn't going to matter. 

 

Uhhh no, it does matter and does cause sin where none was moments ago.

[HappyChristian]

Your wrong, the dress can make a difference, & that is why God tell women to dress modest.

 

1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

 

If there's 2 women setting down & one has on a long dress & the other one has on a very short dress that slips way up while setting, that short dress can make thoughts go though that man's mind that would never enter his mind if she had a long dress on at the woman setting next to her.

 

Like the pastor on one Sunday morning that had a young woman setting on the front pew wearing a mini dress, he paused took of his jacket laying it on her lap, them went back to preaching.

 

An immodest dressed woman can bring thought to a man's mind that would never appear in his mind if she was dressed as God tells her to.

 

Uhhh no, it does matter and does cause sin where none was moments ago.

Sorry, guys, but taking one statement out of context is not really good reading...Please read my entire post and the next one. You'll see that we are actually in agreement.  

[swathdiver]

Sorry, guys, but taking one statement out of context is not really good reading...Please read my entire post and the next one. You'll see that we are actually in agreement.  

 

That statement stood on its own and that's what I responded to, nothing else.  Maybe you should have rewritten it so the first agreed with your later comments?  What do I know, just and old divemaster.

[HappyChristian]

That statement stood on its own and that's what I responded to, nothing else.  Maybe you should have rewritten it so the first agreed with your later comments?  What do I know, just and old divemaster.

No, the statement doesn't stand on it's own or it wouldn't have been in a paragraph.  Reading in context is important to more than just scripture, you know.  Maybe you should have read it all. My statement was accurate.  The first part of the sentence is called a qualifier and explains the entire thing quite well:  "If a man is going to lust.."  That obviously (and if it isn't so obvious to some people, the rest of the post made it quite clear) implies intent on the part of the man.

 

Please, if you're going to respond to my posts, take them in toto as intended.  If a post is only one sentence long, go for it. If not, consider it all.  Otherwise it's twisted.  And wrong. (oh, and that goes for other posts and all readers...let's not rip things out of context just to castigate incorrectly)

[irishman]

John, please understand this about grey areas.  There are some.  My contention is that there simply not as many as some would say they are. 

Modesty is not a grey area - how we apply modesty may differ from one church to another. 

The examples you give are the types of "man's doctrine" that I think Donald is trying to get at - color of shirt, beards on men, how "long" is "long hair" for men, how "short" is "short hair" for women, length of dress/skirt, etc. 

 

These are areas each local assembly must decide for themselves.  In the absence of a CLEAR statement or principle from the Bible, we have the liberty in Christ to differ on these types of matters. 

Where we get off track is when we DEMAND compliance from other churches, and withdraw any fellowship with a church that doesn't agree with our interpretation on these types of issues.

And what does that say for your testimony?  Do you wear an earring?   If not, and it is "unclear" in the Bible, why don't you wear one to church?  Or even a skirt, if that is ok and a matter of "personal choice".  Long hair began as rebellion, and there is verses for rebellion in the Bible.  "1Sa 15:23  For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king".  Most of these "grey areas are sin, and not undefined areas in the Word of God.  Perhaps you don't play cards, or go to drive-in movies, are those grey areas too?  No, I still say there are no grey areas in the Bible unless they are contrived from the heart of man.
 

In my mind, music does not fit into that category.  Maybe Br. Cloud takes things to the extreme, but I think he has the right idea on music.  There are some other issues that I know are not "grey" but are clearly spelled out in Scripture.

 So, in your mind, is it ok to listen to the wrong kind of music?  Maybe it depends on what the wrong kind is?  You are right about music not fitting into a grey area, because there is no such thing.  Grey areas are "loopholes" for those whp have a problem with scriptural truths.

 

[Steve Schwenke]

 

 

Brother, I am not sure what you are driving at here.  It seems to me based on prior posts that we are in agreement. 

I believe in Biblical Modesty.  How I apply that and how you apply that might be different.  How short is too short?  How tight is too tight?  How low is too low (neckline)?  There is no definition for these questions.  Modesty is a good word that covers all the bases, but I am sure not going to make any RULES about it that I cannot support from specific statements in Scripture. 

How long is "long hair" for a man?  If you go back and look at some of the pictures of our preachers from the 1800's (and the drawings from the 1700's), their idea of "long" is much different than ours.  Who is right? 

 

That is the issue we get into. 

I agree that what most people classify as "grey areas" are not really grey either.  But there are some issues that we are given a lot of latitude on - such as length of hair, denim, length of dresses.  I have my opinion on those issues, but what is my opinion worth anyway? 

 

And then we ask WHY is there a lack of a clear definitive statement of these minor items?  Because the Bible was written to ALL people of ALL ages - not just Americans in 2013.  Therefore the instructions must be specific enough to keep us out of danger, yet general enough to be meaningful to everyone, everywhere, regardless of time. 

 

The Lord cannot say that all women everywhere in every age can only wear dresses.  Try preaching that up in the Artic Circle...you will be put on the nearest iceberg, and set adrift.  It doesn't work universally.  And when some rule does not work universally, then there is a fundamental flaw with the "rule."   (BTW, I am all for dresses on women - I just don't have a dress code for our church.  I DO Have a "dress code" for my family, if you want to call it that.)

 

The Lord does not have a dress code for preachers.  The Bible never says that preachers can ONLY wear "white shirts" in the pulpit.  That is a man-made rule.  Some preachers "split" over that lunacy - and some of those men are GOOD MEN!  They just took their rule, with no basis in Scripture, a little bit too far in their zeal.

 

Some preachers DEMAND that all their young "preacher boys" have a military haircut.  Where is that in the Bible?  It is not in there.  The Bible ONLY says that it is a shame for a man to have "long" hair.  But how do we define "long?"  Well, we will all have a little bit different definition of how long "long" is - and that is where true Christian liberty comes in.   All I can tell you is that when my hair starts bothering me, it is too long, and it is time for my Sweetie-pie to get the hair-trimmer out (or maybe the weed-eater???)

 

Long hair on men is not a grey area - but defining how long is "long" - well that IS a legitimate "grey area."  It will differ from church to church.  We just don't want to see any "long-haired freaks" with pony tails down their backs, and primping in the mirrors hanging around too long before they get their haircut.  A new creature in Christ recognizes this, and cuts his hair - maybe with a little encouragement from his pastor or mentor! 

 

Anyway - hopefully, you see my point....and again, I thought we were in agreement, or at least very close....I am surprised by your response, and not sure what to make of it.

[Donald]

This is an interesting discussion, that Scripture does give some light on.
But first..... back to the point of this thread.

I had never heard that some pastors think that it is sin for a man to have facial hair.
And I am sure that some others think that dark glasses are sin, or neck ties, etc.  The list goes on and on.

The bottom line is, none of these men can give a single Scripture to support their personal beliefs, yet you will hear it from their pulpits.
The point of this thread, is that the Lord’s intent of our discussion of this subject is, to open our eyes, that any pastor who preaches against “facial hair” for instance, is hurting his congregation by preventing them from waiting to hear from the Lord, that they shouldn’t have facial hair.

The same is true for EVERYTHING in this list of “things that some of us think are sin, but that the Bible is silent about”.  If God didn’t want us to have facial hair, or listen to secular music, than HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US ABOUT IT IN HIS WORD!!!
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Oh, by the way; Although the Bible does not say how “long”, is too long for a man to wear his hair, it does say how “short” is too short for a woman....
1 Corinthians 11:6
“For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.”

“Shorn”, is a hair style.  A woman should not have “shorn” hair.
 

[Steve Schwenke]

This is an interesting discussion, that Scripture does give some light on.
But first..... back to the point of this thread.

I had never heard that some pastors think that it is sin for a man to have facial hair.
And I am sure that some others think that dark glasses are sin, or neck ties, etc.  The list goes on and on.

The bottom line is, none of these men can give a single Scripture to support their personal beliefs, yet you will hear it from their pulpits.
The point of this thread, is that the Lord’s intent of our discussion of this subject is, to open our eyes, that any pastor who preaches against “facial hair” for instance, is hurting his congregation by preventing them from waiting to hear from the Lord, that they shouldn’t have facial hair.

The same is true for EVERYTHING in this list of “things that some of us think are sin, but that the Bible is silent about”.  If God didn’t want us to have facial hair, or listen to secular music, than HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US ABOUT IT IN HIS WORD!!!
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Oh, by the way; Although the Bible does not say how “long”, is too long for a man to wear his hair, it does say how “short” is too short for a woman....
1 Corinthians 11:6
“For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.”

“Shorn”, is a hair style.  A woman should not have “shorn” hair.
 

The only problem with your statement here is that you include "secular music."  The Bible is much clearer on music than you are willing to admit. 

[John81]

The only problem with your statement here is that you include "secular music."  The Bible is much clearer on music than you are willing to admit. 

Yet this is an area Christians are in great disagreement over, including among IFBs. Obviously the Bible isn't clear on all aspects of secular music, this especially so considering so many of the arguments for or against certain music are based upon non-biblical sources and various opinions.

 

There is great disagreement with regards to everything from children's songs to patriotic songs, from symphonies to big bands, from blue grass to hip hop, from country to rock, from folk to opera, from classical to Southern Gospel, from instrumental to no instruments to which instruments to what hymns are and are not acceptable to Psalms only, to just how those Psalms are or are not to be played and/or sang, etc.

 

The whole area of music has long been and continues to be a very gray area. So much of what many of us listen to in church today was rejected just a hundred or two hundred years ago.

 

Many of the reasons given to accept a song applies to songs some reject; while the reasons give to reject certain songs are not applied to other songs those reasons fit.

 

Certainly all secular music (as well as Christian music) isn't in the gray, but much of it is. Unless a song is obviously unscriptural (such as a song glorifying adultery, the devil, drunkenness, murder and such) I try to be careful in that area. Likely as not if all of us here at OB got together and listed acceptable and unacceptable songs our lists would not be in complete agreement.

 

While I used to confront folks rather aggressively over this issue, I no longer do so. I've seen too many folks pushed away over music that may or may not have been a problem. To a great extent, this is an area a person really needs the leading of the Holy Spirit in and we can get in the way of that sometimes.

 

I'm involved with my own, my families and our churches musical standards, but when it comes to others I no longer dive into the matter unless they bring it up or they are outright listening to something clearly sinful (as mentioned above).

 

This is also not an issue I divide over, unless one were to try listening to devil worshiping music or something while I'm with them. In such a case, if they were unwilling to shut the music off while I'm there, I would leave. Thus far, I've never encountered such. I did ask a guy one time if he would turn off a song that was all about sinful sex which came on his radio while I was there. He turned the radio off.

 

I like bluegrass gospel, such as Heartstrings plays, yet I know some Christians who say that's worldly. I won't stop listening to that music just because of their opinion, but I will respect them and not play such when they are around.

[Calvary]

Please don't take offense, but it seems that a simple person needs everything in "Black and white".  God has given us scriptural scruples too, and some things are just common sense, like...

How long should a woman's skirt be to keep men's eyes from lusting?

A woman's hair is her covering (a sign of submission), and "long hair on a man is beyond the poll line, where the preists had it cut.  A shaven head was/is a shame to a man, etc.

 

Some of these have scriptural references and are not as "grey" as we like them to be.

 

It just seems to fit under "moderation" and scripture. (modesty is all but gone today)

 

So according to that kind of logic, the Amish boys do not lust after women?? If a mans heart is bent towards lust, he´ll find the curve of a woman in any clothing. In addition, that sort of statement lays the blame of the woman and exonerates the man. I don´t get it.

 

How about, How much Bible should a man hide in his heart before he will stop lusting? Will he ever stop?

 

God bless,

calvary

[John81]

So according to that kind of logic, the Amish boys do not lust after women?? If a mans heart is bent towards lust, he´ll find the curve of a woman in any clothing. In addition, that sort of statement lays the blame of the woman and exonerates the man. I don´t get it.

 

How about, How much Bible should a man hide in his heart before he will stop lusting? Will he ever stop?

 

God bless,

calvary

It's a two sided coin. We should each do what we can to not be the cause of tempting another while we should also be in the Word and prayer to build ourselves up in the Lord so we are less subject to the temptation.

[Steve Schwenke]

John I understand exactly what you are saying.  We can draw some very sound Biblical conclusions regarding music from the Bible.  But even then there will be a difference between many on where that line is and how we apply it.   Some of this is geographical and cultural - people up north typically don't appreciate bluegrass gospel, while people in the south generally do.

 

But that is not what Donald is advocating.  He is advocating liberty to listen to secular ROCK music - and I think we can agree that is "over the line."

 

So - music is not a "grey area" in that I believe there is clear Bible teaching on what is right and what is wrong, at least in principle.

The "grey area" comes into play as to how each church defines "good" and "bad", within REASONABLE boundaries.

 

Not sure if that helps or not....

[Donald]

I only have a second to post this right now, but.....

I wanted to make it CLEAR, that none of what I have been saying, is concerning “MUSIC USED IN MINISTRY”, or Church music.
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When we are ministering to others(or being ministered to ourselves), it is very important that Biblical, Christ centered music be used.........
2 Kings 3:10-15
V.10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!
V.11 But Jehoshaphat said, [is there] not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may enquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel’s servants answered and said, Here [is] Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
V.12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the LORD is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.
V.13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab.
V.14 And Elisha said, [As] the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.
V.15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him.
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I have only been talking about, music that WE listen to, as a diversion and to relax.
I personally believe that human beings, physically and emotionally need these times of relaxation.