Wondering

[ptwild]

Ma'am, I don't see your point at all; that is, about works playing a part in salvation since God's Word tells us to avoid sin.

Furthermore, yes, you're one hundred percent right: The Sacraments are works. Therefore, they cannot save. Good works are "filthy rags" in the sight of God:
(Isaiah 64:6) - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Look at this:
(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(Titus 3:5-7) - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; {6} Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; {7} That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

(Romans 4) - "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? {2} For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. {3} For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. {4} Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. {6} Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, {7} Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. {8} Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. {9} Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. {10} How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. {11} And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: {12} And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. {13} For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

"{14} For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: {15} Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. {16} Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, {17} (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {18} Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. {19} And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: {20} He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; {21} And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. {22} And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. {23} Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; {24} But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; {25} Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

(Romans 5:1-2) - "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: {2} By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Ma'am, this is just a sample of some of the passages condemning works-based salvation. It's simply not Biblical. Think about it: God calls your righteous deeds filthy rags. Filthy rags! Salvation is priceless; worth more than all of the world, according to the Word (for what doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?).

Do you really believe that your works - filthy rags in God's eyes - can save you? Furthermore, look at this passage; an excellent, marvelous one regarding salvation:
(Romans 10:8-13) - "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; {9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. {11} For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. {12} For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. {13} For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Ma'am, according to the Word, if you follow these verses and believe them, you'll be saved. Someone could even be led to Christ if they "called upon the name of the Lord."

Where are works in all of this? They're not there. Because it's His works that save us; His works of righteousness, as He has never sinned, nor will He ever. He is perfect, righteous.

Our righteous deeds cannot make us righteous, ma'am - they're filthy rags. Worthless. Useless. But His righteousness can make us righteous. And it will, if we accept Him as Lord and Savior and repent (Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish; Luke 13:3) of our sins.

In response to your question, you receive spiritual baptism by getting saved. If you don't have the Spirit, well then, you're not saved. What does it look like? Well, it looks like a changed heart and a changed life, I suppose. A life saved by the Almighty God.

I am one of those lives. But I am afraid you are not, sadly. Ma'am, won't you be saved today? Your life is but a vapor; you could pass from this life any time.

Let today be the day of salvation.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

She has repeatedly said that she has faith. And that's all it requires. Right?

[Guest Guest]

She has repeatedly said that she has faith. And that's all it requires. Right?

Repentance also is essential.

However, she is not trusting in faith in Christ Jesus alone for salvation, sir; she is trusting in works AND faith, so it would seem. The Sacraments are works, and she is trusting in them.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[ptwild]

Repentance also is essential.

However, she is not trusting in faith in Christ Jesus alone for salvation, sir; she is trusting in works AND faith, so it would seem. The Sacraments are works, and she is trusting in them.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

I guess I'm having a problem descipering how someone that believes that he or she is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is not "saved."

[1Timothy115]

Previously 1Tim115 wrote:Like the Roman Church, the Jews had to include works. When Christ instructed them it only required their faith, even then, they still required something physical they could see, or touch.

First' date=' under the Mosaic Law, the Jews HAD to do good works. This was God's law, not theirs that they were under. So they were accustomed to doing good works to obtain salvation, it was taught to them, not made up by them. Second, this is not the point, the Jews in this chapter are asking Jesus for a sign to prove Jesus has the authority to teach what he is telling them. (without authority, why believe in Jesus? is what they were thinking) [/quote']

Without a sign, why have faith? This is what you propose here; a Jew must then work for their salvation, because they can?t be absolutely sure of Christ?s atonement. Did Jesus teach faith or works? You have to come down to the question of, did Christ, very God, provide all that is required for atonement through his sacrifice? You have to ask, is it finished? Authority can be conjured up over time but faith abideth. I understand that Christ fulfilled the law and provided a new covenant with a new requirement. Why would God put this new wine in an old bottle? Ask yourself, why would Christ institute a new covenant and then require old covenant stipulation he knew no man could keep? What salvation is there in this?

We?re back to the schoolmaster. The OT Mosaic and Levitical law (old covenant) proved that no man, group of believers, or nation could perform acts required by God (through sacrifice and works) for their salvation. Repeatedly, throughout the OT God reaffirms Israel and Judah?s failure to live to the full extent of Godly ordinances. In the NT (new covenant) Christ, God condescended through sinful flesh, kept the law and sacrificed himself; spotless without blame. God was the only acceptable sacrifice and work for the salvation of man. What does the word perfection mean to you? Is it a finite or is it something which you can improve? John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Show us a sign so that we might believe that thou art the Christ, no that would not happen.
1. God the father does the work. I believe that work of God is grace toward man.
2. The sign is Christ being raised from the dead and ascends into heaven.
3. All must now believe (have faith) that God is also able to do this for them.

Christ, taught over and over again that it is faith that saves. Perform a word study on faith in the New Testament. The Jews sought a sign that Jesus was indeed the Christ; but, they thought he would lead them in a military victory over Rome. Christ, very God, had a different plan; a plan of faith.

[Julie L]

Ma'am, I don't see your point at all; that is, about works playing a part in salvation since God's Word tells us to avoid sin.

Furthermore, yes, you're one hundred percent right: The Sacraments are works. Therefore, they cannot save. Good works are "filthy rags" in the sight of God

I think my jaw just hit the floor! Good works are NOT filthy rags.... forgive me this may be long.

There is a difference between "good works", "evil works", & "works of the law"
And we must be careful which type of work we are reading about when reading scripture.
Make no mistake though, the bible does not teach that "good works" are bad. For example: love is not useless, Hope is not pointless, mercy is not a waist, forgiveness is not a filthy rag, etc.

Lets take the work "love". Could I possible tell my husband that my love for him is pointless and a waist? Can anyone build a heathy relationship solely based on faith? Can I tell my kids it is simply enough to believe I have kids, and that God does not require me to love them or feed them or even care about their needs?
No, therefore if God requires more of me in my human relationships, than I'm confident He requires more of me in my relationship with HIM.

In Matt 5:43-48 Jesus teaches that we NEED to love. Not just our neighbors, but our enemies also. This is a hard teaching, because his listeners had only been taught to love their neighbors, but now Jesus is upping the ante, He tells them that NOW he requires an even harder work... that of loving your enemies too!

Jesus tells me to love everyone (which now includes enemies) ...how can you tell me love (a good work) is useless, worthless? To believe so is contrary to scripture.

And don't miss the overall teaching here. Jesus is requiring ALL his followers to love like he loves. And to be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. "Faith alone" does not teach love & perfection (but the bible does) It is important to understand that "faith alone' is not an old belief. And it is not found in historical writing until the 1500-1600's. Does it not concern you that if the early Christians believed the bible taught "faith alone" we would find documentation about it in early Christian writings? We find a ton of other teachings, but never "faith alone" Instead, we read early christian writings and find that they believed in the sacraments and the role of works.

If God is love and He loves us and scripture requires us to love everyone like (Matt 5:43-48) teaches, How can you say that I am relying on something I shouldn't? I'm relying on the bible, which tells me Faith is primary and "good works" secondary. Baptism is a "good work", I know this because: it is not an evil work, nor is it a Mosaic "work of the law", and Jesus was baptized, so therefore, Baptism is a "good work" And we are to follow Jesus. I am not trusting in anything contrary to scripture here.

Everything good flows from love too, like caring for the sick, charity, mercy, forgiveness...

If all good works flow from love, than how do you suppose God will look away from them?

Matt 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So our good works, yours and mine, are not just required, they also glorify God! So I can not believe that God sees good works as filthy rags.

Here's some more:

Col 1:10 - That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every GOOD WORK...

1 Tim 5:10 - Well reported of for GOOD WORKS; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every GOOD WORK.

1 Tim 6:18 - That they do good, that they be rich in GOOD WORKS, ready to distribute, willing to communicate.

2 Tim 3:17 - That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all GOOD WORKS.

Titus 2:7 - In all things showing thyself a pattern of GOOD WORKS: in doctrine, showing incorruptness, gravity, sincerity.

Titus 2:14 - Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of GOOD WORKS.

Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain GOOD WORKS. These things are GOOD and PROFITABLE unto men.

See...Good works are profitable...not useless rags.

"Faith alone" teaches that NOTHING is profitable to men BUT faith. This is why I think "faith alone" can not be trusted.

[Wilchbla]

Interesting how my post about baptism wasn't answered. Is it because Peter clearly said that baptism won't wash away sins? The word SAVE does not always means "eternal life".

Again.

I Peter 3:21- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[Julie L]

by ptwild

[Julie L]

Interesting how my post about baptism wasn't answered. Is it because Peter clearly said that baptism won't wash away sins? The word SAVE does not always means "eternal life".

Again.

nope, it means I've forgotten to reply to it.

I may think more on this verse, but here is what comes to mind right away.

You say that verse 1 Pet 3:20-21 says that Baptism is not a "bath" so to say "washing the filth of the flesh"
But... the answer of a good conscience toward God.

Yep, I can believe that very much!

I can believe that Baptism is an "answer of a good conscience"
(Baptism = answer of a good conscience)

BUT... it still says that this "answer of a good conscience" ...doth also now save us!

Right? The first have of verse 21 is JUST as truthful as the second half right?

It is also interesting to read the sentence without what is in the brackets:
I Peter 3:21- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I'm not saying to ignore what is in the brackets

[1Timothy115]

First, pick your jaw up.

Oh, to add a verse to yesterday when I made my poor attempt to provide you truth...

Without a sign, why have faith? This is what you propose here; a Jew must then work for their salvation, because they can?t be absolutely sure of Christ?s atonement. Did Jesus teach faith or works? You have to come down to the question of, did Christ, very God, provide all that is required for atonement through his sacrifice? You have to ask, is it finished? Authority can be conjured up over time but faith abideth. I understand that Christ fulfilled the law and provided a new covenant with a new requirement. Why would God put this new wine in an old bottle? Ask yourself, why would Christ institute a new covenant and then require old covenant stipulation he knew no man could keep? What salvation is there in this?

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

You may want to examine why a dogma would attempt to downplay the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice. The word of God can make a point in much less space than me :smile

Also, in your comments on good works, you missed who was addressed to perform those good works. I'll note the errors below. Also, for the purpose of redeeming souls to a Holy God, all three types of works you mention are of no effect in that regard. Righteous works are after all the result of a saved person who desires to please the Lord out of love and thankfulness.

I think my jaw just hit the floor! Good works are NOT filthy rags.... forgive me this may be long.

There is a difference between "good works", "evil works", & "works of the law"
And we must be careful which type of work we are reading about when reading scripture.
Make no mistake though, the bible does not teach that "good works" are bad. For example: love is not useless, Hope is not pointless, mercy is not a waist, forgiveness is not a filthy rag, etc.

Lets take the work "love". Could I possible tell my husband that my love for him is pointless and a waist? Can anyone build a heathy relationship solely based on faith? Can I tell my kids it is simply enough to believe I have kids, and that God does not require me to love them or feed them or even care about their needs?
No, therefore if God requires more of me in my human relationships, than I'm confident He requires more of me in my relationship with HIM.

In Matt 5:43-48 Jesus teaches that we NEED to love. Not just our neighbors, but our enemies also. This is a hard teaching, because his listeners had only been taught to love their neighbors, but now Jesus is upping the ante, He tells them that NOW he requires an even harder work... that of loving your enemies too!

Jesus tells me to love everyone (which now includes enemies) ...how can you tell me love (a good work) is useless, worthless? To believe so is contrary to scripture.

And don't miss the overall teaching here. Jesus is requiring ALL his followers to love like he loves. And to be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. "Faith alone" does not teach love & perfection (but the bible does) It is important to understand that "faith alone' is not an old belief. And it is not found in historical writing until the 1500-1600's. Does it not concern you that if the early Christians believed the bible taught "faith alone" we would find documentation about it in early Christian writings? We find a ton of other teachings, but never "faith alone" Instead, we read early christian writings and find that they believed in the sacraments and the role of works.

If God is love and He loves us and scripture requires us to love everyone like (Matt 5:43-48) teaches, How can you say that I am relying on something I shouldn't? I'm relying on the bible, which tells me Faith is primary and "good works" secondary. Baptism is a "good work", I know this because: it is not an evil work, nor is it a Mosaic "work of the law", and Jesus was baptized, so therefore, Baptism is a "good work" And we are to follow Jesus. I am not trusting in anything contrary to scripture here.

Everything good flows from love too, like caring for the sick, charity, mercy, forgiveness...

If all good works flow from love, than how do you suppose God will look away from them?

Matt 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So our good works, yours and mine, are not just required, they also glorify God! So I can not believe that God sees good works as filthy rags.

[Guest Guest]

I guess I'm having a problem descipering how someone that believes that he or she is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is not "saved."

...Only, they're not trusting in Him.

They're trusting in the Sacraments, which they admitted are works. They even believe salvation is of works.
Sir, you do not also hold that view, do you?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Guest Guest]

Great post, Brother Dave.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[Wilchbla]

nope, it means I've forgotten to reply to it.

I may think more on this verse, but here is what comes to mind right away.

You say that verse 1 Pet 3:20-21 says that Baptism is not a "bath" so to say "washing the filth of the flesh"
But... the answer of a good conscience toward God.

Yep, I can believe that very much!

I can believe that Baptism is an "answer of a good conscience"
(Baptism = answer of a good conscience)

BUT... it still says that this "answer of a good conscience" ...doth also now save us!

Right? The first have of verse 21 is JUST as truthful as the second half right?

It is also interesting to read the sentence without what is in the brackets:
I Peter 3:21- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I'm not saying to ignore what is in the brackets

"BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST".

The "washing away of the filth of the flesh" does not mean a "bath" and Peter wasn't suggesting you are saved by taking a bath. And baptism is never associated with taking a bath. So why would Peter suggest whay you think he is?

II Cor.7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Also, you are not saved in the sense of eternal salvtion or everlasting life by having a good conscience.

The word "saved" does not always suggest eternal salvation or forgiveness of sins.

I Tim. 2:15- Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Do you realize that some cult leaders like Joseph Smith and David Koresh have used that verse in I Timothy to teach women that having children will save their souls? How? Because evertime they read the word "save" they read it as meaning eternal life or forgiveness of sins.

Peter is simply saying that just like the Noah and the flood is a type of salvation so is baptism which is a type (figure) of the death and resurrection of Christ.

You need to read the whole thing in context starting at verse 16. It's all just speaking of having a good conscience and testimony before men.

[war_eagle]

Traditionally' date=' young Catholic children will make their first confession, or the Sacrament of Penance, a week before receiving their First Communion. At confession, the child will detail sins and misdeeds to a priest and receive a penance in exchange. [/quote']

What verse is that?

[war_eagle]

we believe baptism is a sacrament that removes original sin.

So, if baptism removes "original sin" (and, by logical extension, a person's sin nature), then why do people continue to sin after they've been baptised?

[war_eagle]

Through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit into us.

Then why does the Bible tell us that we receive the Holy Spirit when we're born again, not when we're baptised?

No, I have never tasted the bread and wine before the consecration. But it would taste the exact same. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine maintain their shape, color, taste, smell, etc. But that the substance has changed. Jesus is now present within it. Some say Jesus is hidden in the Eucharist. After all, who wants to see or taste flesh and blood? not me.

Wait a second! Isn't it always the Catholics who insist so vehemently that you are literally to eat Christ's flesh?

But there is one difference I can tell you about. Once the bread and wine are consecrated, they do not decompose!

This is what is commonly called an "urban legend". Even if it were true, are we to get our doctrine from the word of God or from old food?