Wondering

[Guest Guest]

Good question. :smile Actually, there are 7 Sacraments that the Catholic church believes in. Only Baptism is linked to salvation because it is specifically mentioned in the bible.
(Keep in mind there are 3 types of baptism)

Here are some quotes that the Church uses to explain its view:

"...God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (2 Peter 3:20-21)

"verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (john 3:5) "water and of the Spirit" symbolizes baptism, it has to, as soon as Jesus is done talking about this, in verse 22 it says He and the disciples go out and baptize. So the surrounding context is baptism.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." (mark 16:16)
Note that it does not say "He that believeth shall be saved" but "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved" So Mark is telling us we must have belief and baptism. Everyone would agree that if you do not believe you will be damned. No one is refuting the second half of that sentence. :smile

Thank you for your response, ma'am. There is one problem, though: The Sacraments are works; baptism, the Eucharist, confirmation, etc. - all works.

Do you agree or disagree?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[ptwild]

Thank you for your response, ma'am. There is one problem, though: The Sacraments are works; baptism, the Eucharist, confirmation, etc. - all works.

Do you agree or disagree?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

One could also argue that faith is a work. It requires that you do something. I don't believe that way, just bringing it for the purposes of discussion. I have to say, this is one of the best discussions I've seen as far as both sides being respectful to one another and actually considering what the other has to say. I applaud everyone.

[Julie L]

Thank you for your response, ma'am. There is one problem, though: The Sacraments are works; baptism, the Eucharist, confirmation, etc. - all works.

Do you agree or disagree?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Sure I agree with that. The Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Reconciliation, Anointing of the sick and the Priesthood are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his body. (#774 in the Catechism"

But, you should not find a catholic that says: "I am saved because I'm a priest." or "I am saved because I am married." Nor should you find someone who says: "I am saved because I am baptized."

Keeping in mind that the RCC interprets the Bible as teaching that good works are a part of obtaining salvation. Here is the main difference between our beliefs.
Did I answer you question ok?

One could also argue that faith is a work. It requires that you do something. I don't believe that way' date=' just bringing it for the purposes of discussion.[/quote']

Interesting point, I just read something on this. Faith is seen through Catholic eyes as being a work too. A work of God... but a work none the less.

John 6:27-29 "'Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you'... Then they said to Him, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.'"

He says that believing in Him is the work of God that they must do. Believing is a work, according to Jesus.

For sake of discussion, what does everyone else think? :smile
Jules

[Revelation3:20]

He says that believing in Him is the work of God that they must do. Believing is a work, according to Jesus.

It certainly isn't a work in the sense we usually think of works because it happens in the mind and heart not in physical actions.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This verse teaches that if you are adding works to salvation that your works are compared to what you "debt" is. You could never repay that. Then it teaches that if your not adding works to salvation but believe on Christ alone, that faith makes you righteous through grace. Obviously there is a difference between faith and works.

[Guest Guest]

Sure I agree with that. The Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Reconciliation, Anointing of the sick and the Priesthood are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his body. (#774 in the Catechism"

But, you should not find a catholic that says: "I am saved because I'm a priest." or "I am saved because I am married." Nor should you find someone who says: "I am saved because I am baptized."

Keeping in mind that the RCC interprets the Bible as teaching that good works are a part of obtaining salvation. Here is the main difference between our beliefs.
Did I answer you question ok?

Yes ma'am, you did, thank you. However...

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(2 Timothy 3:15) - "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Ma'am, works play no part in salvation whatsoever; not our works, that is. They cannot save us - only Christ can.

Interesting point, I just read something on this. Faith is seen through Catholic eyes as being a work too. A work of God... but a work none the less.

John 6:27-29 "'Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you'... Then they said to Him, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.'"

He says that believing in Him is the work of God that they must do. Believing is a work, according to Jesus.

For sake of discussion, what does everyone else think? :smile
Jules

But, ma'am, the death of Christ on the Cross and the spilling of His blood - a work - is what saves us. If it is a work of God, it is not our work.

Also, please look at what Brother Revelation3:20 said; he explained it better than I.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[1Timothy115]

So busy here lately...whew! Julie, here are the corrections to your previous post of 20 May 2009, 12:33.

Good question. Actually, there are 7 Sacraments that the Catholic church believes in. Only Baptism is linked to salvation because it is specifically mentioned in the bible.
(Keep in mind there are 3 types of baptism)

Here are some quotes that the Church uses to explain its view:

"...God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (2 Peter 3:20-21)

Julie, your reference for the verse is wrong?the one you?re referring to is 1 Peter 3:20-21. I?ve said before you can?t pick and choose parts of verses to establish a Bible doctrine or a Bible truth. The verses are:

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You have to examine the entire verse to get it?s meaning. Christ resurrection is the saving force whereas baptism is a figure of that salvation; we identify with Christ through the act of baptism. It does not remove sin nor does it provide salvation.

"verily' date=' verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (john 3:5) "water and of the Spirit" symbolizes baptism, it has to, as soon as Jesus is done talking about this, in verse 22 it says He and the disciples go out and baptize. So the surrounding context is baptism. [/quote']

For John 3:5 you again miss context, you have to look before and after the verse to gain it?s meaning. Water, as referred to by Christ in this verse, is discussing child birth.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Christ clarified the meaning and the context is the Spirit. We are discussing two births here, one is child birth the other is Spiritual re-birth.



Julie, can you not see the entire context in Mark 16:14-20 is dealing with unbelief?

In verse 14, the reproaches uttered here by Christ were for unbelief that he had risen not that there was a need of baptism. The act of baptism follows belief; we already know it doesn?t wash sin from the body, nor does it give a second birth.

In verse 15, Christ exhorts the disciples to preach the gospel to every creature. You know he didn?t mean to the lower animals, he meant to mankind. The gospel of Christ is the death, burial, resurrection, and imminent return in glory and power.

In verse 16, we see the results and acts of the word of God being preached; that is, belief and baptism. Faith saves and baptism identifies. Referring back to 1 Peter 3, ??the answer of a good conscience toward God?? Now, what of faith, I refer you to Mt. 9:22, Mk. 5:32 and 10:52, Lk. 7:50, 8:48, 17:19, and 18:42.

In each case what made them whole or saved them was faith (belief). Here is one:
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Did you ever wonder why baptism isn?t mentioned as damning after the semicolon in the verse above? The only damning here is the unbelief.

[1Timothy115]

Sure I agree with that. The Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Reconciliation, Anointing of the sick and the Priesthood are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his body. (#774 in the Catechism"

But, you should not find a catholic that says: "I am saved because I'm a priest." or "I am saved because I am married." Nor should you find someone who says: "I am saved because I am baptized."

Keeping in mind that the RCC interprets the Bible as teaching that good works are a part of obtaining salvation. Here is the main difference between our beliefs.
Did I answer you question ok?



I would say your reaching deep into the dogma of the Roman Church to justify yourself before a Holy God. It won?t get you there Julie.

The scriptures you mention, although in some version I wouldn?t recommend, doesn?t present difficulty when taken in context. It?s God that does the working. It revolves around that five letter word you?ve said you have trouble with, ?faith.?

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Like the Roman Church, the Jews had to include works. When Christ instructed them it only required their faith, even then, they still required something physical they could see, or touch.

Again, it is the work of God, even faith, through his grace toward all men.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Julie L]

Soooo sorry for the long break. Now that it is officially summer, I have much less time in front of the computer.
I think we are having a great discussion There were a lot of replies, I hope I get to all of them. So sorry if I skip one.

It certainly isn't a work in the sense we usually think of works because it happens in the mind and heart not in physical actions.

Works don't need to be done physically though. Here's how I see it: Is having belief hard work for anyone? How about Love? (which is also a work to me, but one done in my mind and heart also) Is loving someone hard work? You bet it is. Have you ever been told to love your neighbor as yourself... now that can be hard. Or love your enemy or someone who just hurt you. This is true of mercy, forgiveness and hope! All works that the bible tells us to do. But they are not done in the physical. In short, I believe that to have faith in Christ can be hard work. Especially if you were born in a family that did not believe or teach you to believe, or people who are going through periods of doubt.

[Julie L]

But' date=' ma'am, the death of Christ on the Cross and the spilling of His blood - a work - is what saves us. If it is a work of God, it is not our work.[/quote']

Amen! I agree with you., Jesus' work on the cross is only His, not ours. This is not my argument though. What I was trying to point out is how the bible labels "belief in Jesus" a work. That's all.

Jules

[Julie L]

Like the Roman Church' date=' the Jews had to include works. When Christ instructed them it only required their faith, even then, they still required something physical they could see, or touch.[/quote']

First, under the Mosaic Law, the Jews HAD to do good works. This was God's law, not theirs that they were under. So they were accustomed to doing good works to obtain salvation, it was taught to them, not made up by them. Second, this is not the point, the Jews in this chapter are asking Jesus for a sign to prove Jesus has the authority to teach what he is telling them. (without authority, why believe in Jesus? is what they were thinking)

Note that in John 6:27 Jesus commands them to "work". He says to labour for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life. He is still telling the Jews they are required to labour/work still, but that they are no longer labouring for (animal) meat that will perish, but for meat that will endureth. You can not get around the fact the Jesus is teaching the Jews they MUST labour/work to acquire everlasting life.

[Julie L]

Julie' date=' your reference for the verse is wrong?the one you?re referring to is 1 Peter 3:20-21.[/quote']

Sorry, my mistake, typo, thanks for the correction :smile



But it says that Baptism doth (does) now save us!

[Wilchbla]

I Peter 3:21- The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

A common mistake made when reading the bible is thinking that a specific word always carries the same meaning throughout. Example: The word "save" or "salvation" ALWAYS means eternal life. Well, it doesn't.

I Tim. 2:15- Notwithstanding she shall be SAVED in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

II Corinthians 1:6- And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

Peter tells you that it isn't eternal salvation ("NOT THE PUTTION AWAY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH") but salvation from a bad conscience towards God. (Romans 8:1)

[Guest Guest]

Amen! I agree with you., Jesus' work on the cross is only His, not ours. This is not my argument though. What I was trying to point out is how the bible labels "belief in Jesus" a work. That's all.

Jules

I see. However...you believe the Sacraments to be salvific. The Sacraments are works. And works cannot save.

But it says that Baptism doth (does) now save us!

Yes. Spiritual baptism in the Holy Spirit.

It cannot be simply water; as that would be a work. Water baptism=work.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Julie L]

I see. However...you believe the Sacraments to be salvific. The Sacraments are works. And works cannot save.

Yes, the Sacraments are works. And I am convinced works do play a part in salvation. It seems logical to me, since the bible writers warn us to avoid sin. Why would scriptures writers teach us to avoid sin, if sin does not affect a believer? If sin affects a believer, then the warning is logical.

Describe for me: Spiritual baptism in the Holy Spirit. How does one receive spiritual baptism? and what does it look like?

In Christ,
Jules

[Guest Guest]

Yes, the Sacraments are works. And I am convinced works do play a part in salvation. It seems logical to me, since the bible writers warn us to avoid sin. Why would scriptures writers teach us to avoid sin, if sin does not affect a believer? If sin affects a believer, then the warning is logical.

Describe for me: Spiritual baptism in the Holy Spirit. How does one receive spiritual baptism? and what does it look like?

In Christ,
Jules

Ma'am, I don't see your point at all; that is, about works playing a part in salvation since God's Word tells us to avoid sin.

Furthermore, yes, you're one hundred percent right: The Sacraments are works. Therefore, they cannot save. Good works are "filthy rags" in the sight of God:
(Isaiah 64:6) - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Look at this:
(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(Titus 3:5-7) - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; {6} Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; {7} That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

(Romans 4) - "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? {2} For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. {3} For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. {4} Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. {6} Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, {7} Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. {8} Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. {9} Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. {10} How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. {11} And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: {12} And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. {13} For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

"{14} For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: {15} Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. {16} Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, {17} (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {18} Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. {19} And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: {20} He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; {21} And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. {22} And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. {23} Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; {24} But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; {25} Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

(Romans 5:1-2) - "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: {2} By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Ma'am, this is just a sample of some of the passages condemning works-based salvation. It's simply not Biblical. Think about it: God calls your righteous deeds filthy rags. Filthy rags! Salvation is priceless; worth more than all of the world, according to the Word (for what doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?).

Do you really believe that your works - filthy rags in God's eyes - can save you? Furthermore, look at this passage; an excellent, marvelous one regarding salvation:
(Romans 10:8-13) - "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; {9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. {11} For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. {12} For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. {13} For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Ma'am, according to the Word, if you follow these verses and believe them, you'll be saved. Someone could even be led to Christ if they "called upon the name of the Lord."

Where are works in all of this? They're not there. Because it's His works that save us; His works of righteousness, as He has never sinned, nor will He ever. He is perfect, righteous.

Our righteous deeds cannot make us righteous, ma'am - they're filthy rags. Worthless. Useless. But His righteousness can make us righteous. And it will, if we accept Him as Lord and Savior and repent (Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish; Luke 13:3) of our sins.

In response to your question, you receive spiritual baptism by getting saved. If you don't have the Spirit, well then, you're not saved. What does it look like? Well, it looks like a changed heart and a changed life, I suppose. A life saved by the Almighty God.

I am one of those lives. But I am afraid you are not, sadly. Ma'am, won't you be saved today? Your life is but a vapor; you could pass from this life any time.

Let today be the day of salvation.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.