Men and Women appart

[1Timothy115]

I didn't say that it applied to just the twelve or the eleven...
Anyway, thank you for sharing.

it=apostle?

Also, I just noticed something else to clear up...

As far as I know there is quite a consensus that the Apostolic age ended in the early second century as if it didn't we would still be adding "letters" to the bible.

First, not all of the twelve wrote letters included in the canon of scripture. So even if one of the eleven were present it doesn't mean we would be adding letters to the Bible.

Second, the life of the eleven or twelve as they were referred ended the age of those Jesus selected as disciples called Apostles. The word (apostle) never ended and goes on to describe all those who go forth as delegate, messenger, or one sent forth with orders.

I was wrong, Paul didn't narrow the definition of an apostle. He narrowed how many we would find however he didn't number them and he certainly put no time period for them. To understand what an apostle is and to whom it's given we must look at least as far back as verse 7 in Ephesians 4. These offices were gifts from the Lord Jesus to the church as he went on ahead.

Ephesians 4:7-13
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the above were limited in verse 13 to say, "Till just the early church come" then apostles would have ended with the early church. No, in verse 13 it says "all" and verse 12 says, "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

Christians are saints lacking in perfection, there is still work of the ministry remaining, and Christians still require edifying.

No matter what we call them today there are still apostles in the church today; Christ gave them (verse 11) performing the duties (verses 12-13) as gifts unto men (verse 8). Edited March 17, 2012 by 1Tim115

[JerryNumbers]

No, there is no apostles in a local New Testament Church today.

There is only two, 2, offices in a local New Testament Church, pastor & deacon.

There is a qualification for being an apostle, that being have seen Jesus, you will find this in the pages of the New Testament.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Jerry80871852

[LindaR]

The Pastor's Title

The terms pastor, elder, and bishop describe the same office in the assembly, referring to three different aspects of the church leader's work. Pastor refers to the church leader as the shepherd of the flock, speaking of his work of teaching and nurturing and protecting the assembly (Eph 4:11). "Pastor" is translated from the Greek word poimen, which 16 times in the N.T. is translated "shepherd" (Mt 9:36; 25:32; 26:31; Mr 6:34; 14:27; Lu 2:8,15,18,20; Joh 10:2,11-12,14,16; Heb 13:20). In the Greek language of the N.T., "feed the flock" (Ac 20:28; 1Pe 5:2) literally means "shepherd the flock"; it is from the same root word translated "pastor" and "shepherd." Elder refers to the church leader's maturity and responsibility and the fact that he is to be an example to the church. Bishop refers to the church leader's authority, to the fact that he is to rule the church. The Greek word translated "bishop" is also translated "oversee" (Ac 20:28; 1Pe 5:2). That these terms refer to the same office in the church is seen in their usage. In Tit 1:5,7 the terms "elders" and "bishops" are used interchangeably. In Acts 20 all three terms are applied to the same office. In v. 17 the church leaders are called "elders." In v. 28 the Greek words for bishop ("overseers") and pastor ("feed the flock") are used. 1 Peter 5 also uses these terms to refer to the same office in the church. Verse 1 speaks of the "elders," and v. 2 speaks of these elders as overseers (bishops) and shepherds. The fact that these terms are used interchangeably is significant. A pastor is an elder is a bishop. These are not separate offices.

Way of Life Encyclopedia
PASTOR

Edited March 17, 2012 by LindaR

[1Timothy115]

No, there is no apostles in a local New Testament Church today.

There is only two, 2, offices in a local New Testament Church, pastor & deacon.

There is a qualification for being an apostle, that being have seen Jesus, you will find this in the pages of the New Testament.

I hear you and I don't have any known offices of apostle in my local church or any attended by me only pastor and deacon.

I can't find where I ever said there was an office of apostle in the N.T. Church, maybe someone else's comment?

Could you give me the Bible reference you use to exclude apostles from being in the New Testament Church today?

Here is where I make a case for (little 'a' apostles in the church today; and ). Below I'm re-posting what Strong's said apostles were.


Apostle
Strong's Number G652 matches the Greek ἀπόστολος (apostolos), which occurs 81 times in 80 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
-1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
-a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
- in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
-1) of Barnabas
-2) of Timothy and Silvanus

I suppose you could question if those “apostles” of today are (1) delegates, (2) messengers or (3) sent forth with orders. Personally, I believe Strong was a little strong with his use of “eminent” in his definition. It is the broader sense or definition of the word “apostle” I’m referring to. Since Matthew 28:19-20 refer to each of us then I would say every true Christian (fulltime ministry or layperson) could be an apostle, that is sent to teach God’s word. However, Paul in Ephesians narrows that definition to “he gave some, apostles.” But, we should avoid saying “it’s only in our group or denomination” as some denominations and cults would have you believe. Some means more than one every time.

[heartstrings]

This is one reason I do not rely on commentaries and Bible dictionaries because they were written by men.
Jesus is the Shepherd. End of story. The word "pastor" means "feeder". You know, like Jesus told Peter to FEED my sheep? Like that. And real sheep turn their nose up at dirty feed. They want theirs clean and pure. Do you reckong the Bereans had commentaries?.

Elders are exactly what the word means.... "older". I personally believe that a King James Bible is sufficient and we dont NEED Greek but If you want to use the Greek, you will find that "elder women" was translated from the EXACT same word as "elders"::"Presbuteros" and so was the "elder son". Two times, at least, the "elder s" of the church is mentioned in the NT. If these were pastors, then how many pastors did their church have? The reason some men (not all**) want folk to believe the "elders" were "pastors" is because the Word of God gave these "elders" power to RULE and so if they can make folk believe that they are THE elder, that helps to legitimatize( is that a word?) them as supreme authority because some people are manipulators and control freaks who don't want to have to answer to anyone else.. Having said that, IF a pastor happens to be one of The OLDER men in the church, then he is classified as one of the "elders" like Peter said he was.

Edited March 17, 2012 by heartstrings

[Standing Firm In Christ]

John 81: "There is no deaconness."

Really? From what I see in the book of Romans, there is.

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The Greek word for servant in this verse is the word "diakonos" Its meanings?

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1249. diakonos
Search for G1249 in KJVSL diakonoV diakonos dee-ak'-on-os
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.
See Greek 1377

Interesting.... specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess);

James Strong states that diakonos can be a pastor.

Hmmmm.

Now, where do we go from here? Could Paul's statement to Timothy be his own preferences? or could the "usurp authority" phrase be a clause? What if the man gives his wife permission to preach? Would she be usurping authority?

So many ways this could run..... Edited March 17, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Are bishop, pastor, and elder the same offices?

Looking at the Greek word for elder in 1 Peter 5, the word "presbyteros", I see that the elder was 1) an Israelite, and 2) a member of the Sanhedrin, and 3) an older (senior) person.

Peter, in the same verse, states that he is "also an elder". Here, he uses a different Greek word for elder. He was not an elder, as in older Israelite Sanhedrist, but rather he was a co-elder.

From 1 Peter 5:2, we can glean the fact that the elders were overseers of the flock.

Elsewhere, (Ephesians 4:11) we learn from the Greek that the word "pastor" means "shepherd". Doesn't a shepherd oversee the flock?

There seems to be a connection between the pastor and the elder for sure.

On to the bishop...

The Greek word for bishop is "episkopos", which also means "overseer".

It appears that all three; the bishop, the pastor, and the elder are to oversee the flock of God. Yet the elder is identified as being a certain people. Specifically, Israelite members of the Sanhedrin that were up in age.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[heartstrings]

John 81: "There is no deaconness."

Really? From what I see in the book of Romans, there is.

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The Greek word for servant in this verse is the word "diakonos" Its meanings?

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:



Interesting.... specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess);

James Strong states that diakonos can be a pastor.

Hmmmm.

Now, where do we go from here? Could Paul's statement to Timothy be his own preferences? or could the "usurp authority" phrase be a clause? What if the man gives his wife permission to preach? Would she be usurping authority?

So many ways this could run.....

I was saved from hearing the Words from a King James Bible...I know not the voice of James Strongs and Greek is Greek to me.
There are no "deaconesses" or woman pastors in the King James.

[swathdiver]

John 81: "There is no deaconness."

Really? From what I see in the book of Romans, there is.

In order to hold that view one must ignore or discount other parts of Scripture. How is a deaconess to be the husband of one wife??? Or did the Lord just include the requirements for a Deacon and leave out the Deaconess?

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Phebe was a diakonos... a deaconess.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

In order to hold that view one must ignore or discount other parts of Scripture. How is a deaconess to be the husband of one wife??? Or did the Lord just include the requirements for a Deacon and leave out the Deaconess?

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

I never said the deaconess was to be the husband of one wife.

[JerryNumbers]

Ac 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Ac 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Ac 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

When picking a replacement for Judas, Peter tells in Acts 1:21,22 the qualifications. There is no man alive today that meets this qualification.

Anyway, if you will study it out you will find that all apostles in the Bible met this qualification Peter spoke of.

[heartstrings]

Phebe was a diakonos... a deaconess.

Then so were the servants that served the water made to wine in the book of John........

KJV#5'>Jhn 2:5
His KJV^'>846 mother KJV^'>3384 saith KJV^'>3004 unto the servantsKJV^'>1249, WhatsoeverKJV^'>3748 KJV^'>302 he saith KJV^'>3004 unto you KJV^'>5213, do KJV^'>4160 [it].

And all of these........
KJV'>http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&t=KJV

[LindaR]

There is nowhere in the New Testament where the church is to select or ordain Apostles....only pastors and deacons (1 Tim. 3; Titus 1). Nobody today meets the qualifications of the original 12 apostles.

Apostle refers to Christian workers in general (other than the Twelve). The Greek word translated "apostle" (apostolos) is also translated "messenger" and "minister":

2 Corinthians 8:23 Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they are the messengers (apostolos)of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger (apostolos), and he that ministered to my wants.

Today the same word (apostolos) could probably be used for missionaries (he that is sent)...like an "ambassador" of the Gospel.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Then so were the servants that served the water made to wine in the book of John........

Jhn 2:5
His ⁸⁴⁶ mother ³³⁸⁴ saith ³⁰⁰⁴ unto the servants¹²⁴⁹, Whatsoever^3748302 he saith ³⁰⁰⁴ unto you ⁵²¹³, do ⁴¹⁶⁰ [it].

And all of these........
http://www.bluelette...trongs=G1249&t=KJV

There is a difference. Diakonos in John 2 were servants of a wedding feast... had nothing to do with the Church. Phebe in the epistle to the Romans was a diakonos to the Church.

Diakonos, when referring to servants to the Church are deacons or deaconesses. specially a Christian teacher and pastor

It is the setting that determines the meaning. If I were to say I were going to have a cup of cider, I would mean apple juice. But elsewhere, cider is an alcoholic drink. Same word, different meanings depending on the setting.

Diakonos, when referring to servants of the Church is speaking of deacons and deaconesses. Edited March 17, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ