It's 1775, Are You A Loyalist Or A Patriot?

[swathdiver]

Just as Catholicism has always entangled itself in the affairs of government rather than being about the things of God, many professing Christians seek to do the same today.

What is more powerful, a group of Christians armed to the teeth attacking the government God has put over them or a group of Christians in continual, fervent prayer for that government?

So were the Founders wrong? Did God shed His grace on America during the Revolution? Nothing we can do is more powerful than prayer.

I had the order backwards, a new government must be formed before throwing off the old. Anyway, I see plenty of times in OT times where un-Godly rulers were overthrown by Godly people. Did that change after the church age began? Aren't we to occupy till he comes? What am I missing here?

In case Janet Napolitano is reading this: Nobody here is talking about actually overthrowing the government, you guys have already done that from within. Just talking about biblical authority for and against such from history.

[blossom]

We were taught in our history class it's a civil war, I'm not going to argue with you as I'm not an expert on the topic.

[John81]

We were taught in our history class it's a civil war, I'm not going to argue with you as I'm not an expert on the topic.

The history taught here is typically wrong, even outright propaganda. Little would surprise me with regards to the falsehoods taught as history today.

The first thing we must consider is what Scripture says the lives of Christians are to be like. What our focus is to be, what we are to separate from, what we are not to become entangled in, where our time, talents and treasures are to be put, and whether we are to be busy building things that last only in this world or that which will last for eternity.

Christians are called to a very high calling. We are called to a life very different from those around us.

[Covenanter]

We were taught in our history class it's a civil war, I'm not going to argue with you as I'm not an expert on the topic.

Murphy's military laws: - Civil war isn't civil.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

No, war, even civil war. is all about power, greed, lust, and its not godly.

Wow, please read before reacting -- reason, not emotion.

I was neither condoning nor condemning war, I was speaking of definitive vs categorization.

Calling a succession a coup doesn't make it one, Edited September 4, 2011 by OLD fashioned

[HappyChristian]

I just wonder how many Christians will sit by when war comes to this country (and,believe me - it's coming. It's fomenting right now, thanks to the current POTUS) and say, "I'm a Christian, not supposed to fight. So I'll just let whatever happens happen." Probably not many. But it sure sounds good to say it, doesn't it? Too bad precedent is set by God Himself having Israel fight. Pacifism doesn't make one a good Christian (no more than fighting does). (and if that seems to be saying that one has to be a good American in order to be a good Christian, so be it. I've never said or intimated it in the past, nor have I read anyone who has. But I will say this: if a person isn't a good citizen, they aren't a good Christian. Regardless of the country of their residence. That doesn't mean they accept their country's wrongdoings as right.)

Old fashioned, you are right. The term "Civil War" is a misnomer because it was not an uprising of the south, trying to seize control of the government. It was a defense of the south against northern aggression and the attempt to obliterate the 10th amendment...kinda like what's going on now....Stonewall Jackson said it best, that the war was actually "our second war for independence."

Romans 13 is not speaking about any particular form of government, nor is it speaking about a government that was godly or godless. It is speaking of the proper function of government. And that function was awry during our founders' time, which is the reason they did what they did. And it is also the reason that the majority of pastors in that day exhorted their parishioners to join the fight against tyranny and oppression, some pastors even leading their men to battle. It is awry now, also, and I truly fear that something horrible is coming our way.

The Loyalists (Tories) were remaining loyal to the king because they believed it was treason to go against him for any reason. But the founders, and the patriots of that day, knew better. They understood what oppression was, and they knew that mankind didn't HAVE to stay under oppression. They knew, even those who weren't Christians, that the natural rights of man were given to them by God. And they stated so in the Declaration of Independence, a document which so many Americans, even Christians (sad to say, many times it is especially Christians) neither understand or appreciate. I have always found it fascinating how the listing of abuses by King George parallels the warning of abuses listed by Samuel to Israel when they sought for a king.

I would have sided with what Swath has listed as Patriot (Whigs). I probably would have been involved in helping the Sons of Liberty in whatever way women could have helped back then; likely my hubby would have been a member of SoL. (I found out just this weekend that my husband and son, via my MIL, are related to Paul Revere. I know it means nothing in light of eternity, but it's still pretty neat all the same...my son is related to Paul Revere and George Washington...two VIPatriots)

Swath - there were also, in a higher percentage, people who were either neutral or apolitical. That might be a choice to add to your poll. Just so you know, we have had this discussion in the past, if you wanted to search and see what's been said (that doesn't mean we can't have it again...just letting you know so you can read up if you want)

[HappyChristian]

A blog that might be of interest.

http://williamdbailey.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/religion-and-government-are-we-a-christian-nation/

[JerryNumbers]

I just wonder how many Christians will sit by when war comes to this country (and,believe me - it's coming. It's fomenting right now, thanks to the current POTUS) and say, "I'm a Christian, not supposed to fight. So I'll just let whatever happens happen." Probably not many. But it sure sounds good to say it, doesn't it? Too bad precedent is set by God Himself having Israel fight. Pacifism doesn't make one a good Christian (no more than fighting does). (and if that seems to be saying that one has to be a good American in order to be a good Christian, so be it. I've never said or intimated it in the past, nor have I read anyone who has. But I will say this: if a person isn't a good citizen, they aren't a good Christian. Regardless of the country of their residence. That doesn't mean they accept their country's wrongdoings as right.)

Old fashioned, you are right. The term "Civil War" is a misnomer because it was not an uprising of the south, trying to seize control of the government. It was a defense of the south against northern aggression and the attempt to obliterate the 10th amendment...kinda like what's going on now....Stonewall Jackson said it best, that the war was actually "our second war for independence."

Romans 13 is not speaking about any particular form of government, nor is it speaking about a government that was godly or godless. It is speaking of the proper function of government. And that function was awry during our founders' time, which is the reason they did what they did. And it is also the reason that the majority of pastors in that day exhorted their parishioners to join the fight against tyranny and oppression, some pastors even leading their men to battle. It is awry now, also, and I truly fear that something horrible is coming our way.

The Loyalists (Tories) were remaining loyal to the king because they believed it was treason to go against him for any reason. But the founders, and the patriots of that day, knew better. They understood what oppression was, and they knew that mankind didn't HAVE to stay under oppression. They knew, even those who weren't Christians, that the natural rights of man were given to them by God. And they stated so in the Declaration of Independence, a document which so many Americans, even Christians (sad to say, many times it is especially Christians) neither understand or appreciate. I have always found it fascinating how the listing of abuses by King George parallels the warning of abuses listed by Samuel to Israel when they sought for a king.

I would have sided with what Swath has listed as Patriot (Whigs). I probably would have been involved in helping the Sons of Liberty in whatever way women could have helped back then; likely my hubby would have been a member of SoL. (I found out just this weekend that my husband and son, via my MIL, are related to Paul Revere. I know it means nothing in light of eternity, but it's still pretty neat all the same...my son is related to Paul Revere and George Washington...two VIPatriots)

Swath - there were also, in a higher percentage, people who were either neutral or apolitical. That might be a choice to add to your poll. Just so you know, we have had this discussion in the past, if you wanted to search and see what's been said (that doesn't mean we can't have it again...just letting you know so you can read up if you want)

If I'm living, I want just set by, I hope that I will be trusting Him with all my heart while trying to do the work that God hath ordained those that have been saved to do.

I understand well that those who do this, some, perhaps many will say those people are just setting by doing nothing. The fact is those who have followed Him, kept His commandments, have done everything possible.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In such a time as you speak of we will probably find out there is not as many Christian as many people think they are.

[HappyChristian]

Jerry8, nowhere does God command the Christian not to defend him/herself. That is what I am speaking of. I agree that there will not be many Christians evident at the beginning of what is coming - because it is due to lack of obedience that we have come to this point. Christians have not been about the job of winning and discipling people as we should have been and should be, nor have Christians truly allowed God to mold them and make them what He wants them to be. And so sin has taken a strong hold of America. Because of that, persecution and war is coming. Trusting God with all your heart doesn't mean not fighting back - especially if a person's family is in immediate danger. (It doesn't mean one has to fight...God leads people individually as well as corporately)

If someone breaks into your home, will you just let it go (the "you" there being generic - not asking anyone specific)? Jesus doesn't expect that. He said: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." That statement was inserted in a talk about His return. I believe it means that the head of a home would do what is necessary to see his family saved, but Jesus used an analogy there about a thief, and about the head of the home not allowing that thief to hurt his home. The head of the home would not allow his home to be broken up, destroyed.

The country is just an extension of our homes. And there are thieves breaking in and stealing - stealing our liberties, which God gave us at the inception of this country. Yes, we need to be about the business of soulwinning and discipling. That is vital. Very vital. And I commend you for taking it so seriously. But that doesn't mean we are to neglect everything else. We are in the world - not of it, as far as the mindset and philosophy. But I do believe that Christians who do not do what they can to see things done right politically will answer for it. Why? Because God has given us much - and we are letting it slip through our hands. I don't believe it will be long til Jesus comes - but He told us to occupy til He comes. Too many of us aren't doing that - spiritually or otherwise.

Allowing the thievery of our liberties to continue simply makes it more and more difficult to be about the business of Christianity...which is why the first amendment was written in the first place. Our forefathers were actually very wise men.

[blossom]

Hi Happy Christian Just would like to ask and I'm not disputing what you've said, but are you taught in your history classes that it was a civil war or a war. I'm baffled as to why we were taught it was a civil war. I guess it's like the Korean War, many call it a war but it was actually classified as a Police action.

[John81]

Hi Happy Christian Just would like to ask and I'm not disputing what you've said, but are you taught in your history classes that it was a civil war or a war. I'm baffled as to why we were taught it was a civil war. I guess it's like the Korean War, many call it a war but it was actually classified as a Police action.

The war the colonists fought against Great Britain is taught here as the American Revolution.

The Korean War was, as you say, classified as a police action.

Whatever a war is called, it's still war.

[HappyChristian]

It's called a civil war because it was between two parties from what was the same country. The technical definition doesn't fit what the war actually was, because of the fact that the southern states had already seceded. But because the north and the south were at one time one country, and family fought against family, it isn't a completely wrong thing to call it a civil war. We are taught here in America that the War Between the States was a Civil War.

Each military action has a specific moniker - Korea is called the Korean War, but was a police action (because we were "policing" things there, supposedly). Etc.

[John81]

A civil war is where two or more groups attempt to control the government of a country. The war of 1860-1865 wasn't a civil war. The war the American colonies fought with Great Britain also wasn't a civil war.

[HappyChristian]

Actually, John, a civil war is a war between organized groups within the same country - they seek to gain control of the government, or change policies. It's not technically correct for the Late Unpleasantness because the country had divided in two (notice how many names I'm using...that war had a plethora of them).

And you're right, neither of those wars were civil wars. Again, because the north and south were at one time one, it is called that in schools and history books. The War for Independence was definitely not a civil war, because it was fought against a government from another continent.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Hi Happy Christian Just would like to ask and I'm not disputing what you've said, but are you taught in your history classes that it was a civil war or a war. I'm baffled as to why we were taught it was a civil war. I guess it's like the Korean War, many call it a war but it was actually classified as a Police action.

Korea and Viet Nam were classified a "Police Action" for only one reason --- many U.N. countries require a Congressional or Parliamentary declaration of war to engage in sustained armed conflict with another country. This way their politicians could bypass their countries laws.